DACs vs Turntables

[marshanp]

I have just listened to the wonderful First Symphony of Egon Wellesz by dialling it up on my streaming service. I might have listened to it on an LP... except there's never been one. This is the case for oooh, about a million pieces of music I want to hear.

Now, please remind me... what was the question?

 

[John Phillips]

They are not small things you cannot measure. They are frequencies at or above half the sampling rate. A perfectly well understood fact that follows directly from the sampling theorem.

Indeed. A mathematical theorem first published in 1915 which I had to understand in 1998 for a professional change of role, and then apply practically. A theorem now implemented with increasing precision in the past couple of decades as new technology has advanced to a point for which I would have killed in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Implementations that can now, 106 years after its publication, approach the theory so closely that it's almost inconceivable that remaining imperfections are still audible.

That's not to say anything about whether someone prefers a different technology (analogue or digital). Indeed music via a good turntable/arm/cartridge provides just as much enjoyment to me as via a good DAC. But that's a different matter from making statements about digital theory and its implementation.

There are imperfections in stereo systems that remain and do matter technically and/or as a matter of preference. But the nervous audiophile seems to cling on to dragons that have long been slain.

 

[Miss Ariel]

Which kind of tells me you're not "into" vinyl ?

I get what you're saying regarding options at the time and to be honest we're all looking for different things from it all

I'm a firm believer of listening to the music and not the HiFi but I love the vinyl ritual, I also fully understand why others don't

Your last statement also rings very true with me

I was thinking that Sunday morning playing a Vivaldi box set La Cetra Op.9 on vinyl.The packaging notes inside etc.Remembering where I got it etc.
Just playing on a lower spec LP12 but for me I really love the ritual of playing vinyl.
Also my collection not massive but at least 2500 albums and the spines on the shelves I find really comforting to look at.Remembering where you got the albums,decades in your life etc
I mean you can stream and have all those albums but for me anyway it's all pretty soul less.
Sound quility Digital v Analog there just difearant both have their merits.
I find digital really sterile almost to perfect.
Maybe my LP12 is coloured but to my ears it just sounds right.

 

[Del monaco]

There’s something reassuring about a format that has lasted the years and has given us Beecham, Toscanini, Gigli etc. But it’s about the music. In the end it doesn’t matter how the CD or LP looks, whatever the cover they have or the notes and essays they carry(and sometimes they really aren’t very good). The soul is always in the music for me. It transcends all else whether it is streamed, needled or lasered . For me I can get this soul from any format.

 

[fegs]

I was thinking that Sunday morning playing a Vivaldi box set La Cetra Op.9 on vinyl.The packaging notes inside etc.Remembering where I got it etc.
Just playing on a lower spec LP12 but for me I really love the ritual of playing vinyl.
Also my collection not massive but at least 2500 albums and the spines on the shelves I find really comforting to look at.Remembering where you got the albums,decades in your life etc
I mean you can stream and have all those albums but for me anyway it's all pretty soul less.
Sound quility Digital v Analog there just difearant both have their merits.
I find digital really sterile almost to perfect.
Maybe my LP12 is coloured but to my ears it just sounds right.

I pretty much agree with most of that, the bit that particularly rings true for me is remembering where you were in life, which partner etc, that element of it means a lot to me.
I don't even think I'm striving for something that sounds like what was heard in the recording studio (not that I'd know what that was), I want something that just sounds "right"to me
I enjoy digital but much prefer the vinyl sound and ultimately it works very well for me

 

[Mr Pig]

That's not to say anything about whether someone prefers a different technology (analogue or digital). Indeed music via a good turntable/arm/cartridge provides just as much enjoyment to me as via a good DAC. But that's a different matter from making statements about digital theory and its implementation.

I have a question for you? A serous one. Nothing whatsoever to do with the original question but just while you're talking about our understanding of digital audio.

I have been using a Rega Saturn-R as a transport for years. A few months ago I fitted a Mana Clamp to it. Out of curiosity but I really did not expect it to do anything at all. The improvement is great! I won't go into details, they don't really matter, as I do not understand how it can make any difference at all? The box does is spit out a data stream to the DAC. Surely that either works or it doesn't? I already knew that different transports don't all sound the same but this makes no sense to me at all.

 

[sonddek]

I have a question for you? A serous one. Nothing whatsoever to do with the original question but just while you're talking about our understanding of digital audio.

I have been using a Rega Saturn-R as a transport for years. A few months ago I fitted a Mana Clamp to it. Out of curiosity but I really did not expect it to do anything at all. The improvement is great! I won't go into details, they don't really matter, as I do not understand how it can make any difference at all? The box does is spit out a data stream to the DAC. Surely that either works or it doesn't? I already knew that different transports don't all sound the same but this makes no sense to me at all.

Have you tried getting someone to test whether you can tell the difference without knowing?

We all project a lot of what we hear. That's why it's difficult not to go around in circles when trying to refine a system.

 

[Mr Pig]

Have you tried getting someone to test whether you can tell the difference without knowing?

It's not a cable. It's not something you can fit and remove easily.

But I'm not imagining it. I've been listening to lots of CDs I know really well and they don't sound the same. When you're just playing music in the background you forget all about the Clamp, you're just playing CDs, but you know you're hearing a different sound.

 

[vln]

Interesting thread - here are my thoughts on this (in no particular order):

• I do not think vinyl categorically outperforms digital, but when it does it makes digital sound like a joke (a bad one). This is most noticeable to me when listening to digital during the week and then switching to vinyl on the weekend.
• I mostly listen to jazz on vinyl; if you were mostly listening to classical I can see how you probably embraced the CD wholeheartedly at the beginning of the 80ies, as classical (e.g. symphonies and other large scale stuff) never sounded very convincing to me on vinyl (happy to be proven wrong though).
• I own an Accuphase DC-37 and it is probably the component with the worst VFM in my system. Still, I have it but I don't think I would buy it again so lightly and would probably go for a DAC board for my preamp instead (if staying in the Accuphase universe).
• I don't like the word 'ritual' but it has become an important part during the day, during winter and in lockdown even more so, to call it a day WRT laptop, smartphone and tablet and lock them away somewhere (out of sight, out of mind), and detox for the evening with something nice on the turntable (and a good book).
• I don't take vinyl and TT ownership lightly as I have strong minimalist leanings and the thought of getting rid of my (admittedly) smallish vinyl collection plus the TT and the phono preamp strikes a chord from time to time. Usually I then just need to put the right records on to dispel these thoughts in minutes.

 

[misterdog]

But the nervous audiophile seems to cling on to dragons that have long been slain

Tony should make this quote a banner for the site..

 

[misterdog]

Five years ago we would have had a thread CD Player V DAC. I wonder if in 5 years time with the demise of the CD and the rise of cassette tape, we will have a thread DAC V cassette ?

 

[vln]

Re the OP's questions:

Does anyone here believe that a relatively modest but superb measuring DAC can outperform a top turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage combination? For the sake of argument let's say the whole vinyl front end cost £8-10,000 or more.

Yes I do - but not with every recording (see my other post).

If so, I'd be interested to learn what analogue equipment you own or owned and which modest DAC was good enough to better or equal your expensive analogue gear.

Analogue: SME 15A & Whest RDT40 (AT cart); digital: Accuphase DC-37 (not very modest I admit), Accuphase DAC40 board.

I'd also be interested to learn if you considered yourself to be an objectivist or a subjectivist.

I see myself as an objectivist with some subjectivist leanings.

 

[Miss Ariel]

There’s something reassuring about a format that has lasted the years and has given us Beecham, Toscanini, Gigli etc. But it’s about the music. In the end it doesn’t matter how the CD or LP looks, whatever the cover they have or the notes and essays they carry(and sometimes they really aren’t very good). The soul is always in the music for me. It transcends all else whether it is streamed, needled or lasered . For me I can get this soul from any format.

Del,
Loved your.... The Soul is always in the music it transends all else weather it is streamed ,needled or lasered.
Agree you right.....I do like the packaging of product though,but that's me ...the music always comes first !

 

[sq225917]

600 quid dac vs about 10k of analogue front end. There's nothing in it, it comes down to the recording/ mastering/ pressing every time. I have no dog in the fight as regards dogma.

 

[hermit]

600 quid dac vs about 10k of analogue front end. There's nothing in it, it comes down to the recording/ mastering/ pressing every time. I have no dog in the fight as regards dogma.

What is the DAC in question?

 

[sq225917]

Gustard a18

 

[jimpey]

the bit that particularly rings true for me is remembering where you were in life, which partner etc, that element of it means a lot to me.

Bloody hell, Fegs, how many partners have there been?

Rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer

Jim

 

[Mr Pig]

Bloody hell, Fegs, how many partners have there been?

Too many or not enough? ;0)

 

[JensenHealey]

Does anyone here believe that a relatively modest but superb measuring DAC can outperform a top turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage combination? For the sake of argument let's say the whole vinyl front end cost £8-10,000 or more.

If so, I'd be interested to learn what analogue equipment you own or owned and which modest DAC was good enough to better or equal your expensive analogue gear.

I'd also be interested to learn if you considered yourself to be an objectivist or a subjectivist.

There is an extra question to throw back at this. You have to define what criteria you are using to get a result that is 'outperform'. Presumably you mean 'better'... but exactly what is 'better'
A lot of correspondents have taken to discussing 'accuracy' presumably as a measure of 'better' - but there could be many other definitions or measurements equally valid.

So my question back to the OP - what is 'outperform'? And how do you recognise or measure it.

So - some thoughts...

I would add that by an awful lot of measurements a cheap DAC system would outperform any turntable combination at any price. S/N? Check. Stereo Seperation? Check. Rumble? Check. Frequency range - probably check. Timing accuracy? Check. I guess there are other measurements. A stereo cartridge is rather compromised transducer! Mono could have been better perhaps.

Still, even a modest LP playing set up can sound great - which arguably implies not that the turntable is 'better' than a digital system - but rather that the digital system is perhaps over-specified and high rates and high bit depths are not needed??. Early Phillips players are still loved by many - with a 14 bit DAC at 44.1Khz.

Someone noted the famous trial where Mr 'Linn' was unable to tell the difference between a live LP playing and a digital 'recording' of the same LP - that tells you that the digital system used was plenty detailed enough to capture everything that the LP12 was reading from the record. Others have pointed out that a CD version of an album is never the same as the LP - the mastering is different, so they cannot be compared directly. You may prefer one or the other - I cannot see how either could be declared as 'outperforming' the other as the OP asks about.

The much criticised MQA encoding makes use of the idea that digital PCM is over-specified. The designers realise that the large number of bits in a regular PCM signal are not 'needed' and can be re-purposed to give an illusion of wider bandwith. Pioneer Legato link DAC was a broadly similar idea implemented without all Intellectual Property razzmatazz.

 

[John Phillips]

I have a question for you? A serous one. Nothing whatsoever to do with the original question but just while you're talking about our understanding of digital audio.

I have been using a Rega Saturn-R as a transport for years. A few months ago I fitted a Mana Clamp to it. Out of curiosity but I really did not expect it to do anything at all. The improvement is great! I won't go into details, they don't really matter, as I do not understand how it can make any difference at all? The box does is spit out a data stream to the DAC. Surely that either works or it doesn't? I already knew that different transports don't all sound the same but this makes no sense to me at all.

My PoV is that the digital parts of a system, including DACs, can be essentially transparent and substitutable, for relatively little expenditure. The mathematics says so and the technology has advanced so much that my experience today is that any remaining defects simply fail to interfere with my appreciation of the quality of the music and its production values. That's where I certainly want to be. I regard this as a golden age for digital music.

I don't expect my taste is shared by everyone. It may not be what someone else wants from the hobby and if so that's fine. Choose your components according to taste and how you want to pursue the hobby.

My limited experience of analogue sources recently is that they can be just as good at lacking defects that interfere with enjoyment of the music and its production values. Much better than my experience in the 1980s of very varied vinyl quality. However the small population of modern analogue source kit I have heard (at shows) has been expensive.

The OP asked for details. The two CD player/DACs I have active at the moment (Quad CDP-2 from 2004 and ATC CDA2 from 2018) are quite good enough to simply get out of the way of the music. I would happily pit them against the very best analogue sources.

As to your question, if I had experienced that on audition for a home system, and convinced myself it couldn't arise from the brain part of my ear-brain system, I would have rejected the components concerned. They are doing something that should not happen in my philosophy; something that should be avoidable according to my experience of the technology. However if tweaking and matching appeals then that's fine too.