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DAC experts.. what’s as good as…

Fourlegs said:
Maybe you should at least read some reviews to get a flavour of how something might sound in your system. Otherwise your short list for auditioning equipment is totally reliant on measurements. Or perhaps you don’t even audition and just buy blind based on measurement? I don’t know, do you?
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I shortlist my equipment based on measurements and my understanding of the science involved, prior listening experience and correlating measurements with listening. Then I listen, free of any preconditioning, in my room with my system.
Reading reviews will only serve to generate expectation bias, apart from reviews being completely subjective and taste not being easily transferable, and my system/room not being like any other system/room.
 
Short answer, 1) it's the pre (or lack thereof) 2) any modern DAC should get pretty close.

I have a V-DAC from 2010 ish -- the DAC in my phone sounds much better.

Also depends what the input is, USB was definitely a second class citizen 15 years ago, not these days.
 
I’m agnostic, owning pretty much the best and worst measuring ASR dacs and liking the sound of both.

I do though believe that conducting a proper unsighted test is a useful reality check and a likely way to keep a lot of money in your bank account, unless you buy for other reasons like badge, looks, country of manufacture, support, connectivity, all valid.
 
Heckyman said:
Short answer, 1) it's the pre (or lack thereof) 2) any modern DAC should get pretty close.

I have a V-DAC from 2010 ish -- the DAC in my phone sounds much better.

Also depends what the input is, USB was definitely a second class citizen 15 years ago, not these days.
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I’m not convinced that a well implemented DAC is still not pretty competitive in today’s market.

Review from Absolute Sound at the time:

www.theabsolutesound.com

Weiss DAC 202 24bit/192kHz FireWire DAC - The Absolute Sound

Weiss DAC 202 24bit/192kHz FireWire DAC -
www.theabsolutesound.com www.theabsolutesound.com

I love mine anyway, Eoin is just keen to see what he could get nowadays which could get close to the same natural and organic sound.m but for less outlay.

Eoin, given you don’t have the same setup as I do with easy to switch XLR’s (to move between digital and vinyl), I think something like a Benchmark or RME would be worth a go. But you might still be missing some of the magic you heard on Thursday evening.
 
Any -120db thd+noise dac should be indistinguishable from the weiss. Gustard A18 owner, former Weiss 202 owner.
 
You're plugging in the DAC direct.

ASR miss output impedance as a factor for SQ, especially when going preamp-less or with a passive pre. JA of Stereophile always gives the output impedance measurement (which can sometimes vary a lot over frequency, see Naim NSC222 review!)

The Chinese manufacturers seem to be concerned at acing ASR measurements in particular, and surprise surprise the output impedance of Chinese DACs tends to be nowhere near, say, Chord or dCS (note I'm personally also interested in preampless, plus XLR).
 
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sq225917 said:
Any -120db thd+noise dac should be indistinguishable from the weiss. Gustard A18 owner, former Weiss 202 owner.
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How many -120db thd+noise dac are there?

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colasblue said:
I strongly suspect that ASR are measuring exactly the right things, and Weiss usually scored pretty well relatively when their products were newly released.

The problem is that people find some forms of distortion enjoyable which is why we still have loads of equipment stuffed full of thermionic valves and tantalum capacitors.

You could invest £200 in something topping made fairly recently and which scores well and see what you get. If you don't like you can move on at little or no loss. You might just be surprised!
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Having had most of the 'Best' SS way back then, thank Christ I discovered Thermionic valves ( Passlabs excluded)
 
Si74 said:
Having had most of the 'Best' SS way back then, thank Christ I discovered Thermionic valves ( Passlabs excluded)
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Actually, yes I agree with you there, Pass Labs are excluded from the normal SS stuff. After 35 years of delighting in the sounds from 2A3, 300B and then 845 I realised that the Pass Labs XA series gave me all of the delights of the valves but without any of the deficiencies and draw backs
 
@tuga loads

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You've shown the rca graph, 4db lower than the xlr @4v -118db for the Gustard A18

I'm more than happy with its limited quality...
 
Quick Look, non FS (what’s the difference?) RME looks like it’s about £5-600. Not to clear on the various versions.
 
Eoin said:
Quick Look, non FS (what’s the difference?) RME looks like it’s about £5-600. Not to clear on the various versions.
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FS = Femto Second. RME DACs with it have lower jitter, doubt it’s audile but they measure better which is all that matters to some potential customers.

You need to hear some DACs in your own system and work out what approach you like and features you need, only opinion that counts is yours.

In my home office I ran an RME ADI-2 FS AKM and Topping D90SE into a Quad QSP, personally I preferred the RME by a margin, it’d be a decent place to start imo.

Over lockdown I bought/sold/borrowed/did head to heads with a bunch of DACs - most of the Chords, a few of the top measuring ASR DACs at that time, some older models from the likes of Cambridge, Naim, Cyrus and some pretty expensive models from Auralic and dCS. Some of the DACs sounded similar, if they had filter options I found them subtle, enjoyed comparing them all at home and making my own mind up what mattered and what I liked. I found bigger sq differences when used as a Pre/DAC rather than as a pure DAC.

When buying kit I also take into account build quality, aesthetics and how nice they are to use - intuitive menu options, button layout, quality of the remote.

HTH
Gus
 
I have the D90SE, which was at the top of the table until a couple of months ago.

No complaints at all and I can certainly hear the improvement over the Benchmark DAC3 it replaced (which of course was also once top of the table but is now a bit further back down the field).

The BM DAC3 scores very similarly to the original RME ADI2 dac which was based on the AKM chip. I don't think ASR have actually tested the current version which is now based on a lower ESS chip than the BM. They certainly found it hard to express a preference for one over the other based on the original version.

You can pick up a used D90SE for under £500 or a DX5 for a lot less. Not such a lot of outlay really and easily recoverable if you don't like the sound and sell it on.

I'd be a bit wary of a used RME since it is not always clear which version you're buying and the latest one is not well covered by reviewers.
 
3 main versions of the RME ADI-2 FS.

Original had AK4490 and a smaller remote with fewer buttons.

Updated versions have larger remote called the MRC with more buttons. Initially using an AK4493 chip and then an ES9028Q2M chip, the ESS version has a small C at the end of the serial number sticker (B stands for AKM 4493).

The unit with AKM has a filter called Short Delay Low Dispersion, the one with ESS has a filter called Brickwall.
 
sq225917 said:
@tuga loads

index.php



You've shown the rca graph, 4db lower than the xlr @4v -118db for the Gustard A18

I'm more than happy with its limited quality...
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A point people need to keep in mind is that such figures depend on details the graph doesn't show. e.g.

What was the measurement bandwidth? ...weighting? ... rms/peak? ...etc.

If, say, one DAC had a steep analogue low-pass filter after its conversion stage it might measure better than a different DAC that lacked this - due to lower noise-spectral-density values way above the audible range.

i.e. change the way the values are measured and you may change which one seems 'best'.

Information Theory 101: Data is only information when you know exactly how that data was created. Quite often even the reviewer writing down the values has nae clue about some detail that mattered. As the Romans almost used to say - Beware of the Dog. 8-]
 
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