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Cyclic debates and moderation

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dave said:
Let's try this from another angle Rob,

At what point do you believe an "objectivist" should leave what's clearly a subjective thread? After his first post stating an objection (with his reasons) and when there's no response (assuming he hasn't said anything belligerent provoking a response of course.)

regards,

dave
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I can't answer that since I don't accept your very black and white definition of objectivists and subjectivists. For example, by some measure, I'm far more of a subjectivist than you. Think about it. I've spelled this out many times.

dave said:
Don't you believe the thread's majority have the right to discuss a matter in a peaceful, uninterrupted manner regardless of how you or I feel about the worthiness of the subject? (Especially when they've made it clear with silence or with replies that they are not interested in our opinion?)
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No I don't.
Free from aggression and name calling, yes absolutely.
Free from challenge or criticism, absolutely not. That's what blogs are for.
On open forum I believe that any opinion goes, for the very obvious reason that many more will be reading a thread that actually post in it. Look at it this way. Just suppose for a moment that the general consensus of such a thread really is getting it completely wrong but the majority are just going with the flow. A policy of deliberate abstention from such threads for anyone holding a strongly contrary view gives you a potentially quiet life but a potentially bad thread, especially for anyone reading and minded to pay attention.


Now I really must hit the sack.
 
I've got to hit the sack myself...hope Monday isn't rough for you! Mine will be a long day unfortunately;-)

All we are asking is to let folks have the right to discuss things in an uninterrupted manner when they make it clear they're not interested in our opposing viewpoints.
 
Afraid your last point does mean censorship.

Personally I found the long thread I started on amplifiers very useful, and it had a strong influence on the amplifier I bought. Yes, it went throught the objective/subjective mill, but not in a remotely negative way.
 
Robert said:
This is nonsense, what you are calling for is censorship because the POV expressed differs to your own.
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We had all this a while ago with Ashley James. Every time he wrote something, a not inconsiderable number of PFMers went crying to the mods; it was rather toe-curling!
 
Robert, once this stupid consultation process is out of the way in my manor I'll pop down and hear your Quad setup.

This is relevant to the thread btw.

Identifying the theme of a given thread as being either theoretical/philosophical or practical/empirical may address the problem of too many threads being turned into the same water-down-the-plughole debate by page 2.
 
hammeredklavier said:
We had all this a while ago with Ashley James. Every time he wrote something, a not inconsiderable number of PFMers went crying to the mods; it was rather toe-curling!
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Most of what Ashley writes is toe-curling (note I said what he writes not him as an individual) but I wouldn't report that to the mods unless there was a clear, identifiable and serious AUP breach on his part.
 
avole said:
Afraid your last point does mean censorship.

Personally I found the long thread I started on amplifiers very useful, and it had a strong influence on the amplifier I bought. Yes, it went throught the objective/subjective mill, but not in a remotely negative way.
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The theme of your thread was clearly theoretical/philosophical from the outset so there wasn't a problem. It is when threads begin on a practical/empirical theme and are (prematurely) turned into a debate on the former that there really is an issue.
 
It wouldn't be so bad if the objective view was put forward in a more didactic way. But it is often couched in very challenging terms. If we're pointing fingers, I'd say it is far more likely that the objective view will be given somewhat, er, forcefully, whereas the subjective view is offered in a much less challenging tone, unless it is in response to provocation.

Like Dave, Robert and the others, I would not want to see censorship, but if those who don't behave reasonably won't, or can't, behave reasonably then it does seem inevitable that it is more likely to be their posts which would be cut.
 
Aah, tweet, I needed a good laugh.

Swallow the pill and admit that both sides can be as bad as each other!
 
Steven Toy said:
The theme of your thread was clearly theoretical/philosophical from the outset so there wasn't a problem. It is when threads begin on a practical/empirical theme and are (prematurely) turned into a debate on the former that there really is an issue.
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Yes, this is the key point. It simply isn't worthwhile starting a review or impressions thread at the moment, since they all get trashed by a few individuals and become the same argument. The threads then become too long for anyone with a conventional lifespan to bother with, and any chance of gathering other people's impression is lost.
 
I learned a while back rather then get angry, post ponies. when sad, post ponies, when rumbled out-you-haven't-the-faintest-clue-what-the-hella-you-are-talking-bout-willis, post ponies. When-some-asshole-wants-to-try-and-pin-shit-you-believed-to-be-true-like-a-decade-ago-and-you-were-stoned-at-the-time, post ponies.

Forget religion or diplomacy or even the mojiterational-big-red-button. Post Ponies. Its the future of the human race.

There are clues sprinkled throughout the sacred works

2u9li6x-jpg.9646
 
Fox, does My Little Pony ever take a dump? If so I'd like to buy four sacks please. Makes great thread conditioner......
 
Your divine holiness, I am convinced MLP poop is just your regular run-of-the-mill candies. (We could do a DBT/DBX/ABX thingummy wostit and see if people can recognise which came from whom and show graphs for serge and everyfink)
 
When a paragraph begins with "It simply isn't worthwhile starting a review or impressions thread at the moment" diversity of discussion is clearly being stifled. We don't need censorship for that has the same adverse effect. What we do need is clarification and reinforcement of the rule on thread crapping so that the respective theme (either theoretical/philosophical or practical/empirical) is maintained.

There are two empirical approaches too and both are valid. There is the objective empirical approach that is strictly evidence-based. This has the advantage of having a low risk of error but its relevance to actual human experience may be questionable. There is also the subjective, hands-on observational approach. This has the advantage of being more relevant to actual human experience but carries a greater risk of error caused by potential flaws of perception due to bias and conflict of information received via different sensory inputs.
 
I don't know what the fuss is about when a thread gets boring I stop reading it. These cyclical threads tend to be driven by people trying to sell you something fighting a desperate rearguard in a industry in terminal decline. Anyone who's been here a while knows the argument and can predict it's content and the participants.

FWIW I think PFM is a better place for the hobbyist than it was now it is no longer the SH Linn/ Naim owners forum.
 
I'm pretty much objectivist, I certainly lean way over to that side of things. But I really do find it utterly tedious when any thread that wants to discuss how a piece of equipment sounds is almost immediately turned into a "Robert, serge and Teddyray say no difference can exist" thread.

Frankly I know what you think, there's no need for me to read your opinion that all gear sounds the same in every single thread about dacs, power amps, pre-amps ad infinitum. You've managed to turn Zerogain into a ghost town with your attitude towards hifi I'd suggest it's not In Tony's interest to let you do the same on PFM.

If I wanted to read that I'd go to Hydrogenaudio. The WAM has a technical section which largely keeps the "but you can't measure it so it doesn't exist" posts out of the general audio section, that might well be what is required here.

Certainly I agree with Steven it's just a type of thread crapping, and it stifles posting and discussion. I agree that we need a dose of common sense as regards the most ridiculous types of foo in the market, but this isn't that, it's just annoying cyclical and repetitive thread crapping.
 
sq225917 said:
I agree that we need a dose of common sense as regards the most ridiculous types of foo in the market, but this isn't that, it's just annoying cyclical and repetitive thread crapping.
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But one man's ridiculous foo is another's utter conviction, unless the debate on cable directionality is settled. I have more of a problem with "if it measures the same, it must sound the same".
 
A lot of the problems would be solved by more respect to the OP's question or objective on any individual thread. Clearly if an amateur enthusiast is posting their impressions of a ZOG power amp the so called objectivist's (SCO) point of view just isn't relevant, since the whole premise of the thread is about impressions.

However the respect goes both ways, since if an SCO buts in with the old measurements blah-blah shtick, the OP can simply say;

'Thanks for your point, SCO, but that's not what this thread is about. Would you mind leaving this thread as a space to share our IMPRESSIONS. I'd like to know about other user's experience of the ZOG power amp, because I realise how much this experience is effected by CONTEXT, musical preference, etc.'

Then we might hope the SCO would simply say; ' Ah yes, I see, please carry on, and I'll go and start my own thread about measurements; I have lots of interesting experiments to share. It was nice to chat.'
 
Ah, if only ...

Unfortunately, most SCOs share some DNA with Ralph Nader and see it as their mission in life to rescue all non-Os from the folly of their ways.
 
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