Corbyn at it again over Iran blowing up Oil tankers

[tiggers]

Back to the OP...

Either he is deliberately making his chances of becoming Prime minister unlikely or he is a f*****g idiot. My money is on the latter. He did the same with the Salisbury incident.

Or he is fully aware of the crap the US and UK governments get up to when it suits them to go warmongering and based on the balance of their behaviour over the last few decades wants some actual concrete evidence of Iran's involvement before we start firing the missiles. I agree with him 100%!

What actually makes people f*****g idiots is believing everything they see in the Western media about how evil countries like Iran are when the real evil is sitting in Washington and Westminster! I guess that's how the likes of Trump and Johnson become leaders, the gullible being spoon fed propaganda and not having the nous to think for themselves!

 

[maxflinn]

Back to the OP...



Or he is fully aware of the crap the US and UK governments get up to when it suits them to go warmongering and based on the balance of their behaviour over the last few decades wants some actual concrete evidence of Iran's involvement before we start firing the missiles. I agree with him 100%!

What actually makes people f*****g idiots is believing everything they see in the Western media about how evil countries like Iran are when the real evil is sitting in Washington and Westminster! I guess that's how the likes of Trump and Johnson become leaders, the gullible being spoon fed propaganda and not having the nous to think for themselves!

Perfectly put sir.

 

[sq225917]

Iran, now let me think when was the last time their army was an aggressor outside of their own borders? Oh that's right, pretty much never.

Now let's look at the USA, oh that's right, they've been engaged in ceaseless military conflict for 220 out of 240 years.

So yeh, F-ck them and their bull5hit pot stirring.

 

[Woodface]

Interesting thing about media bias is that Alistair Campbell was really reviled by his use of spin, perhaps he was actually necessary?

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

There might then be the question of how they knew it was there?

The fire and the holes blown by the other explosives might *just* have led them to investigate. And then mk1 eyeball the unexploded devices.

The point being that *we don't know* the answers to such questions. So we should not simply jump to a conclusion that leads to us getting into a conflict.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

It doesn't Matter whether he is right or wrong that isn’t the issue. The fact that he leads with his jaw before having ascertained the facts is his downfall. He may be right but the Salisbury screwup will make most potential Labour voters assume he is talking out of his backside.

Actually the situation is that he *doesn't* lead with *our* jaws, and is then criticised for not rushing us all into conflicts, etc. In any other situation this would be regarded as rational evidence-based consideration, but not when the Daily Hate's rich mates want to criticise someone who might take their toys away.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Unfortunately you have a very good point there.... It kinda means only "Tory lite" Labour govs can ever get in though... what a depressing thought

Actually, this depends on all of us and how willing we are to fall for the b00locks spouted by the right wing.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The above, like Corbyn, is just a student common room/union radical-grade argument as it stands not the slightest hope in hell of ever gaining a parliamentary majority. The question you need to ponder is which is likely more effective; a Labour majority with a moderate leader like Cooper who could actually win, lose the stain of racism etc, or a backwards-moving Corbyn-led opposition party with Johnson’s Tories the largest party even if they fall short of a majority?

It really is time to admit Corbyn has failed. It may not be fair that he has failed, but the reality is that he has.

That condemns us all to endless Toryism running the country for the benefit of their rich backers, etc. Having dealt with Corbyn they will simply move on to treat any other left-of-them politician who might become popular in similar ways. So all you are telling us to do is let them move on to their next target.

Oh well, at least I have the advantage of living in Scotland, so have an alternative prospect that we might be rid of England at some point. Not that I wouldn't prefer to be a part of a UK that *isn't* in thrall to the wealthy right, but it might be the best I can get to be rid of them...

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Sorry Tony but I fail to even imagine why you think she would win a GE.

People don't want Tory-lite/moderate etc anymore.

And even if they do, experience shows that they won't tackle the real problems and their causes.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The fire and the holes blown by the other explosives might *just* have led them to investigate. And then mk1 eyeball the unexploded devices.

The point being that *we don't know* the answers to such questions. So we should not simply jump to a conclusion that leads to us getting into a conflict.

Oh sure, I agree. The perennial problem with all of this is that the public never knows the extent of the evidence behind the decisions. There is likely to be some evidence which is classified and thus not in the public domain, and (at least some of) which will have been shared with the UK. What we don't know is whether it implicates or exonerates Iran. Nor do we know whether the US might have been selective in what it shared.

 

[Seanm]

The underlying problem with your post Sean is that Corbyn has not "pulled the centre ground very firmly to the left". The centre ground is exactly where it was, the change is that Labour has pulled to the left and the Tories have pulled to the right. The gap for appealing to voters therefore remains to the centre, as it always was.

I'm talking about the political substance of mainstream political opinion, and the general sense of what, in policy terms, is possible. You're talking about geometrical axioms.

Remember that in the run up to the 2017 election the Labour right leaked an early draft of the manifesto because they thought it was so far left that it would discredit the leadership, and that members would be beating on Cooper's door begging her to save them from the Trots. After the election the manifesto was hailed as a triumph of common sense: no credible rival for the leadership position would seriously question any of its positions. The Conservative manifesto, meanwhile, was savagely right wing: it doubled down on austerity, gloated about their intention to make society still more unequal, took for granted the sadomasochism of their ageing base with its social care proposals. All of that was forgotten the day after the election and they immediately started to make unconvincing noises about austerity being over.

Corbyn has moved this country left. Or rather, he has forced elite political opinion to recognise where much of the country's at. If all you're looking at is Tory gammon you could be forgiven for missing this but step back from Brexit even a little and it's pretty obvious.

 

[richardg]

Slightly off-topic...but...even though I quite like him, he has said this:

"Absolutely awful to see @realDonaldTrump
using the tragedy of people being murdered to attack the Mayor."

Isn't he doing the same thing by tweeting that? I could tweet this:

"Absolutely awful to see @jeremycorbyn using the tragedy of people being murdered to attack Donald Trump."

 

[Joe Hutch]

Oh sure, I agree. The perennial problem with all of this is that the public never knows the extent of the evidence behind the decisions. There is likely to be some evidence which is classified and thus not in the public domain, and (at least some of) which will have been shared with the UK. What we don't know is whether it implicates or exonerates Iran. Nor do we know whether the US might have been selective in what it shared.

I think the experience of the 'Dodgy Dossier' should give us a few hints.

 

[Seanm]

Interesting thing about media bias is that Alistair Campbell was really reviled by his use of spin, perhaps he was actually necessary?

Skilful handling of the press is certainly helpful. Campbell is reviled for spinning us into a disastrous war, for bullying journalists and discrediting politicians. In no way did he stand up to or even mitigate the excesses of the right wing press: New Labour capitulated to Murdoch on everything.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Slightly off-topic...but...even though I quite like him, he has said this:

"Absolutely awful to see @realDonaldTrump
using the tragedy of people being murdered to attack the Mayor."

Isn't he doing the same thing by tweeting that? I could tweet this:

"Absolutely awful to see @jeremycorbyn using the tragedy of people being murdered to attack Donald Trump."

I think that's a bit 'meta' Rich.

Trump's tweet is an obscene use of a tragic event to attack a political opponent. Corbyn's tweet is a criticism of that behaviour. It isn't using the tragic event as its prop, the event is secondary.

 

[wacko]

Slightly off-topic...but...even though I quite like him, he has said this:
"Absolutely awful to see @realDonaldTrump
using the tragedy of people being murdered to attack the Mayor."
Isn't he doing the same thing by tweeting that? I could tweet this:
"Absolutely awful to see @jeremycorbyn using the tragedy of people being murdered to attack Donald Trump."

No it is not the same. It is valid comment on a disgrace of a POTUS.

 

[Seanm]

EU, UN and Germany are taking the same position as Corbyn. Tory war pigs way out on a limb.

Would love to see some polling on this: I'd put money on pro-war attitudes in the UK being limited to say 30%: strictly the no deal, nuke Korea gammon.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Let's hope the warmongering Tories put more of their base off supporting them, in the event of a GE, then.

 

[Tony L]

That condemns us all to endless Toryism running the country for the benefit of their rich backers, etc. Having dealt with Corbyn they will simply move on to treat any other left-of-them politician who might become popular in similar ways. So all you are telling us to do is let them move on to their next target.

Oh well, at least I have the advantage of living in Scotland, so have an alternative prospect that we might be rid of England at some point. Not that I wouldn't prefer to be a part of a UK that *isn't* in thrall to the wealthy right, but it might be the best I can get to be rid of them...

I don’t agree. Scotland is a fine example of what a credible left of centre party with a credible leader can achieve. Sturgeon and the SNP run rings around Corbyn’s Labour at every level. If Labour had someone as focused, articulate and direct as Sturgeon in control along with a manifesto based upon real moral conviction rather than half-assed fence-sitting in the face of far-right nationalism they would hopefully be making similar gains in England.

I’d not be surprised if Labour get totally wiped-out in Scotland next election, and they deserve it as they just aren’t competitive. They will fair marginally better in the rest of the UK as, at this stage at least, our alternates are less focused, plus we are blighted by the hopelessly biased FPTP system. They will certainly lose many seats to the Lib Dems and hopefully a couple to the Greens too. Deservedly so. To win an election you have to win the argument, and Corbyn’s Labour are consistently failing to do this.

 

[Joe]

I will vote for Corbyn when he categorically commits to immediately scrapping Trident. Just to see him stick by ONE thing that he has espoused all his life. I don't hold out any hope of him sticking to his previous convictions regarding Europe.