Component Priority: Speaker First, Source First, System Balance...?

[Martyn Miles]

I always look at the source first, for a different reason.
We have had a new sound system fitted in our church and it’s used for speech and music.
On the music side a reasonable quality ( £250 ) condenser mic. is used for the singer.
She is a trained professional singer with a beautiful voice.

As an experiment I tried one of my own condenser mics. a Neumann vocal model.
which cost twice as much as the normal mic. she uses.
The Neumann was a revelation.
She said she didn’t have to work so hard with it.

She added that listening through the foldback made her realise the limitations of the cheaper.
mic.
When she said she didn’t have to work so hard, I thought of an analogy.
When using high quality speakers it’s easier to listen.
You brain doesn’t have to work so hard disseminating the music.

 

[Mick P]

The criteria for what comes first is based on cost. Speakers are expensive brand new and dirt cheap second hand. I suspect my Naim CDS3 is worth about 5% of its new price and amplifiers are now pocket money prices.

In fact I wonder why people buy any new Hifi kit at all because the depreciation is enormous.

So if you use cost as the basis of where to put your money, do you use new price or second hand price. That can turn the discussion on its head.

 

[x21]

In fact I wonder why people buy any new Hifi kit at all because the depreciation is enormous.

Sometimes you even get some upgraded jumpers thrown in.

 

[Mick P]

Sometimes you even get some upgraded jumpers thrown in.

Yes and even they depreciate.

 

[music fiend]

In fact I wonder why people buy any new Hifi kit at all because the depreciation is enormous.

Someone has to, I suppose. And if you can afford to buy new and don't intend to sell why should you care about depreciation?

 

[paulbysea]

I am firmly in the source first camp and my systems since the late 70s have been built from this premise. But sometimes there are situations and systems where the opposite is true and they sound great. As a rule of thumb, spend more downstream of your speakers but sometimes if it works and sounds great ignore this rule of thumb.

 

[music fiend]

Upstream, you mean, right?

 

[adamdea]

Equalization is a trivial matter. But what about the ability to add other non-lineaities that tend to be pleasing to the ear. For instance synthesizing harmonics.

Sorry I missed that. There are plugins which do that on the production side. The point of my slightly tongue in cheek comment is this stuff is perfectly achievable but, whilst it can be shown that people often like non-linearities they tend not to want them when they are served up as such. I believe Weiss have a vinyl plugin on some of their dacs. I once suggested a vinyl plugin for the squeezebox system: one of the developers said - why would anyone want one of those?

 

[Columbo]

Been reading some Audio Note reviews, these sections from a couple of different reviews make the case of source/amp first:

DAC review:

Well, things didn't work out quite like planned. When I did the A/B I'd be damned if I could hear much of a difference. Guessing, it was maybe 5% or so in favor of the 2.1x sig. Well, I contacted Peter to let him know what I was hearing (or not hearing in my case). He suggested looking at my Lowthers. Personally, I knew it wasn't the PM2A's or my amp but I did suspect my pre might have not been up to the challenge. So just recently, I upgraded my Korato preamps. Not to a different pre, but I took it down and replaced the coupling and output caps with Chris VenHaus' Teflon V-Caps and OIMP caps. After letting these things run in for about 300 hours I figured it was ready to test the AN DAC 2.1x Signature. Let me just say this, both of my preamps were completely transformed (look for a full review of the OIMP caps soon).

On the subject of the upgrades, I have to be completely clear with you guys on this one. If I hadn't taken both of my preamps down and upgraded them with, well.... Expensive parts -- the V-Caps in particular -- I would have written the Audio Note off as not being worth the money. With the old Hovlands and Solens that resided in this pair of pre's, they absolutely veiled the sound. In turn, as revealing as my 2A3 and Lowthers are, they were definitely limited by my pre.

In my communications with Peter, he was right to a certain extent. There was something which wasn't allowing me to hear what the 2.1sig had to offer. The limiting factor were my coupling caps rather than the Lowthers. See, if you can't hit a higher level of resolution with your system, quality gear like the Audio Note 2.1 sig DAC will seem like an overpriced piece of witchery. You'll never be able to hear much of a difference between it and a lesser quality piece. As it always is, resolution comes with a price. How do you know if you've attained that level of resolution with your system? I'm afraid that's one for another article.​

Joe Audiophile Listens... Audio Note DAC 2.1x Signature Review By Scott Faller

Joe Audiophile Listens... Audio Note DAC 2.1x Signature - Enjoy the Music.com Review Magazine

www.enjoythemusic.com

Speaker review:

Heading into the dedicated Audio Note (UK) showroom I asked to hear the AX-Two. The dealer connected them up to one of Audio Note (UK)’s very pricey systems; a system that probably exceeds $300,000US which for Audio Note (UK) is a little above a midrange system. I questioned the dealer on putting a $1200US retail loudspeaker on such a system, but what was reproduced was stunning. Piano was rich full and surprisingly deep. It gave me goose bumps which is rare in audio products, even very expensive ones. Subjective as that may be it is what it is and it spoke to the heart.

This illustrated to me the value of front end equipment. Modestly priced superbly designed loudspeakers can in fact produce terrific sound and Gerard Rejskind of UHF Magazine has trumpeted the source first approach to building a system since the inception of his magazine. And if there is a system out there that solidifies and supports Gerard’s view it was this Audio Note system in which the speakers were the least expensive part of the system, indeed less expensive than the interconnect cables! So much for “spend the most money on speakers.” This system was startling.

Audio Note (UK) AX -Two Loudspeaker Review

The AX-Two loudspeakers are part of Audio Note (UK)’s entry level “ZERO” series of products. The AX-One and AX-Two are standmount speakers designed to be partnered with the I Zero and CDT Zero CD player as an entry level complete Audio Note system. While there is something to be said for...

www.dagogo.com

There you have it. All you need is a quarter of a mill to make your KEF LS50s sing

 

[tuga]

Been reading some Audio Note reviews

I know this is the standard practice but I find it puzzling.

 

[Columbo]

I know this is the standard practice but I find it puzzling.

It can be highly informative if you learn to read between the lines, understand how reliable specific reviewers (or forum people) are or aren't, if their ears/tastes match yours, if they've reviewed gear you've also have as a point of reference, if your are able to form a collective picture from forums/reviews etc. It's how I've purchased every single bit of my gear, blind and based of online feedback. And purchases have always performed within 80-120% of expectations (The little Neats exceeded expectations). That's a pretty good hit rate for 10+ years of doing this.

Mind you, I'm still none the wiser about AN DACs

 

[tuga]

It can be highly informative if you learn to read between the lines, understand how reliable specific reviewers (or forum people) are or aren't, if their ears/tastes match yours, if they've reviewed gear you've also have as a point of reference, if your are able to form a collective picture from forums/reviews etc. It's how I've purchased every single bit of my gear, blind and based of online feedback. And purchases have always performed within 80-120% of expectations (The little Neats exceeded expectations). That's a pretty good hit rate for 10+ years of doing this.

I think that's wishful thinking. Have been doing this for several decades now and that's how I see it.
For one almost all reviews are taste-driven (making the reported experience non-transferable) and often the writers are not knowledgeable and attribute (potentially) audible traits to the wrong causes (because sometimes there's nothing there). Also reviewers who peddle cables are automatically scrapped.

Mind you, I'm still none the wiser about AN DACs

There's no replacement for listening in one's room with one's system. And not having one's head manipulated by reviews helps massively.

 

[x21]

The point of my slightly tongue in cheek comment is this stuff is perfectly achievable but, whilst it can be shown that people often like non-linearities they tend not to want them when they are served up as such.

It's a shame, as it could solve a lot of problems that people have with digital.

 

[Columbo]

I think that's wishful thinking. Have been doing this for several decades now and that's how I see it.
For one almost all reviews are taste-driven (making the reported experience non-transferable) and often the writers are not knowledgeable and attribute (potentially) audible traits to the wrong causes (because sometimes there's nothing there). Also reviewers who peddle cables are automatically scrapped.





There's no replacement for listening in one's room with one's system. And not having one's head manipulated by reviews helps massively.

It depends who you listen to. If you listen to a random opinion then that's meaningless. Or if you listen to people who hear the same gear completely different to you, then proceed with caution.

But if there are reviewers/forum folk who have had similar experiences with you with the same gear then you can begin putting stock in those opinions because you have a useful shared point of reference. The art of triangulation, or something Then if have several trusted sources for a particular component then it becomes really rather easy to get a reasonably solid idea of what's what. Of course, as you allude to, that doesn't mean you'll ever fully grasp what a piece of gear is like. You won't. Some things are just so hard to describe in words alone and you can never guess room interactions, component synergy etc. so I get your point... the ultimate test if your ears, your room, over many, many hours.

 

[Phyztech]

Look what the guy is saying - speakers should be less expensive than interconnect

 

[Phyztech]

It's a shame, as it could solve a lot of problems that people have with digital.

Most of the problems people have with digital are because of the 2 huge issues they don’t know about their systems: not good enough power supply and not good enough network.

 

[S-Man]

Most of the problems people have with digital are because of the 2 huge issues they don’t know about their systems: not good enough power supply and not good enough network.

By that logic Naim CDPs should be wonderful. Lots of care with the PS and no need for a network.

 

[x21]

Most of the problems people have with digital are because of the 2 huge issues they don’t know about their systems: not good enough power supply and not good enough network.

If by network you mean the reconstruction filter, I agree. Far too many DACs allow aliasing.

 

[adamdea]

It's a shame, as it could solve a lot of problems that people have with digital.

I see your point but the real problems most people have* with digital is that it doesn't seem complicated or difficult enough. And in many cases they have found the solution in buying pointless add-ons to take the system to a level of complexity sufficient to match their idea of what a sonic connoisseur's system should be. And of course to provide an endless stream of upgrades to supply the interest / hobby. The elaborations can be super high tech, shamanistic or whatever really. They may be unnecessary super -engineering or just plain crackers, it largely doesn't matter. The crucial point is that the "solution" has to be the solution to a fantasy- and no one** has the fantasy that what they need is to degrade the sound with distortion (even if they might in fact like that distorted sound).

Equally even though degrading the sound might be euphonic up to a point what the vinyl plugin teaches us is that the romance of vinyl is not actually in the sound. Of course if it were, all we would need would be bootleg copies of digital recordings from the holy grail of Michael Fremer's turntable.

* "most people" strictly meaning "most of the very few people who actually do have a problem with digital"
** see above

 

[Mike Hanson]

I see your point but the real problems most people have* with digital is that it doesn't seem complicated or difficult enough. And in many cases they have found the solution in buying pointless add-ons to take the system to a level of complexity sufficient to match their idea of what a sonic connoisseur's system should be. And of course to provide an endless stream of upgrades to supply the interest / hobby. The elaborations can be super high tech, shamanistic or whatever really. They may be unnecessary super -engineering or just plain crackers, it largely doesn't matter. The crucial point is that the "solution" has to be the solution to a fantasy- and no one** has the fantasy that what they need is to degrade the sound with distortion (even if they might in fact like that distorted sound).

Equally even though degrading the sound might be euphonic up to a point what the vinyl plugin teaches us is that the romance of vinyl is not actually in the sound. Of course if it were, all we would need would be bootleg copies of digital recordings from the holy grail of Michael Fremer's turntable.

* "most people" strictly meaning "most of the very few people who actually do have a problem with digital"
** see above

Believe me, I'm not searching for complexity. I was very happy to go from the four big boxes of Naim CDS2/XPS/NAC52/SuperCap to the two small boxes of Squeezebox as streamer and Benchmark DAC2 as DAC+Pre.

Then my friend demonstrated that my accurately measuring Benchmark could be bettered sonically by other DACs. Perhaps the preferred DACswere adding euphonic distortion, and quite frankly I don't care. All I know is that it sounds better.

And yes, I'm irritated that's it's more complex again.