Whaleblue
Southbound
I've had a peruse of their (frankly terrible!) website, and see they offer an 'Up' option that allows a choice of input buffer boards (class A I believe?).
Anyone have any experience with these?
class d.
- Thread starter the loaf
- Start date
I've had a peruse of their (frankly terrible!) website, and see they offer an 'Up' option that allows a choice of input buffer boards (class A I believe?).
Anyone have any experience with these?
Music freak
pfm Member
A perfectly put argument.Audio is a subjective hobby/passion and each of us will have preferences that differ - this is normal human behaviour and is perfectly acceptable (as long as it remains a preference and does not become a soap box in Hyde Park).
BTW, having some issues in HF does not necessarily imply a coloured performance - just that the HF can be problematic when matching Class D amps with other components that have similar challenges in the HF area.
There are numerous combinations of amp and speakers that just don't work as a combination - but, in different setups, each can and does sound great.
Where Class D scores is in its high efficiency and low heat dissipation which, when coupled with (in the right component mix) excellent sonic performance, makes it ideal in our shrinking audio real estate circumstances.
There are arguments for both positions - as there should be given the subjectivity at work.
Dave
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
Your first point re tubes not colouring more than mosfets, etc. is debatable and will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer of each example compared. See next paragraph but one re colouration.
More modern designs (and bolt-on fixes) have reduced switching noise levels - what recent examples of Class D main rig amps have you auditioned of late?
Third point irrelevant - issue raised was "colouration" not "distortion" and these are different phenomena - "colouration" being due to small but detectable variations in gain at various frequency bands, while "distortion" is just that - distorted signal elements.
Fourth point compares apples with pineapples - Tripath chip-amps compared with main rig Class A/Class AB amplification. You need to compare apples with apples - eg compare a Wired4Sound 100wpc Class D integrated with a 100wpc Class AB amp from the likes of Creek/MF/etc. Or, at the other end of the price spectrum, compare a NAD 3020 Class AB with a NAD 3020D Class D.
Dave
Music freak
pfm Member
What I find impressive is the ability of Class D amps to present an absolutely clean silence background when one considers amplifier dynamic 'noise floors' . The dynamic range of an amp is limited by its amp's rated 'introduced circuit noise'.
Having heard a Sony AV amp versus a Naim combo amp set up - in a careful digital meter check-tested . read -out , very quiet controlled - setting...., the deliberately chosen / used music material than went finally to a long extended soft passage fully down to "ppp'' and finally silence. The Naim came off 'second best'.... masking some of the music's final moments. Proving what extraneous amp 'mud' .....colors many a hi fi system's reproductive performance , without an owner's apparent awareness.
Plus use of digital amplication units in other areas, such as small budget combo systems can be used to great advantage. To hear such designed combos that although limited across the musical spectrum of 'unleashing itself' as one expects of a big full system....still it is staggeringly to hear a modest system "so evenly balanced' in what IT DOES DO. What matters most , is the achieved synergy between any amp and the particular speakers chosen, to be driven. .
It is possible that digital amplification requires just more careful matching.
Having heard a Sony AV amp versus a Naim combo amp set up - in a careful digital meter check-tested . read -out , very quiet controlled - setting...., the deliberately chosen / used music material than went finally to a long extended soft passage fully down to "ppp'' and finally silence. The Naim came off 'second best'.... masking some of the music's final moments. Proving what extraneous amp 'mud' .....colors many a hi fi system's reproductive performance , without an owner's apparent awareness.
Plus use of digital amplication units in other areas, such as small budget combo systems can be used to great advantage. To hear such designed combos that although limited across the musical spectrum of 'unleashing itself' as one expects of a big full system....still it is staggeringly to hear a modest system "so evenly balanced' in what IT DOES DO. What matters most , is the achieved synergy between any amp and the particular speakers chosen, to be driven. .
It is possible that digital amplification requires just more careful matching.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Synergy doesn't exist, you need an amplifier which properly drives the loudspeaker in question, it's suitability or not can be derived from the amps specifications.
Keith
Keith
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
That has to be the most spurious logic I've ever come across....
Synergy can only NOT EXIST when all components adhere 100% to interface and response/level standards. In other words, when all speakers have the same sonic signature and all amplifiers have the same sonic signatures.
The moment differences in sonic signature ARE introduced across amplifiers and across speakers, there will be combinations where the differences COMPLEMENT each other and there will be cases where combinations just don't work. The first case where the differences complement each other constitute synergy - by definition.
Also, specifications are not the ideal and only basis for system building - that honour belongs to the buyers ears and brain.
Not everyone is in a position to spend a fortune on an audio system and is forced - by budget constraints - to buy less than perfect components. This not the end of the world as it is still possible - with a fair amount of auditioning - to find a set of components (each of which is not perfect) that actually DO achieve a total system performance that typifies "the whole being greater than the sum of the component parts" (another definition for "Synergy").
Dave
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Loudspeakers have a set of measurement parameters, efficiency ,sensitivity, phase, impedance they are it's requirements to be driven properly without clipping, nothing to do with 'sonic signature' I am afraid.
Keith.
Keith.
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
MF has nailed a particularly important (but, as yet, ignored) aspect of audio system performance as perceived by the listener - the issue of a "noise floor".
(I think we'll stay away from external sources of interference to keep the noise floor of this thread at an acceptable level...
)Whatever its source, any noise floor will mask any reproduced signal where the signal level is below the noise level (or floor) or where the frequencies overlap (reinforcement/cancellation).
One example of such a category of reproduced signal lies in the spatial cues that permit the brain to reconstruct the sound-staging, imaging and venue acoustics of the recorded performance.
A high noise floor tends to result in a "homeless performance" while a very low noise floor allows for a stable, spacious and realistic reconstruction of the performance.
This was particularly noticeable when switching from Classe CA-100 Class AB stereo power amp to Rowland Model 201 Class D monoblocks - thanks to a combination of a very low noise floor AND better channel separation.
Another example of the benefits of a low noise floor are wide dynamic range recordings (as found in classical recordings) with passages that are "ultra pianissimo" or very low level.
The Philadelphia Orchestra (conducted by Eugene Ormandy and with Michael Murray on organ) recording of the Saint-Saens Symphony No 3 has passages where the organ is used at very low levels to provide a soft low frequency foundation for the total performance. While using the Classe CA-100 (and its contemporary components) I never registered this organ support as such. When switching to the Class D Model 201s (with contemporary components and accessories), the pushing down of the noise floor allowed the organ to be clearly heard.
In fact, the last system upgrade 12 years ago was largely driven by a desire to drive down the noise floor to allow listening to classical music at levels that would not cause the cat to evacuate its bowels...
Dave
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
Semantically incorrect, I'm afraid...
The speaker characteristics you've listed are just that - speaker characteristics that define the capabilities of the speaker.
The amplifier requirements to meet these speaker characteristics need to be derived from these same characteristics, but are defined as amplifier requirements:
Speaker efficiency/sensitivity will help determine required amplifier power
Speaker impedance will help determine required amplifier current delivery
Speaker phase linearity will help determine required amplifier phase behaviour
Please note the careful use of "will help determine" - these are not the only factors. Speaker frequency curves - i.e. level by frequency - (not their frequency range plus/minus a deviation) are of more use in speaker selection than in amplifier choice. (But this links to the buyers listening preferences mentioned below).
The most important factors are those defined by the buyer:
- Musical genre preferences (classical, jazz, heavy metal, new acoustic)
- Frequency range preferences (down to very low, up to very high, band-limited)
- Listening level preferences (low, medium, high, fcuk)
- Listening environment (size, shape, furnishings, etc)
Relying solely on "spec compatibility" is a dangerous basis for producing a satisfied customer - focusing on assembling a system that satisfies the buyer's preferences and constraints is a more reliable basis for a successful sale in the longer term (and will also generate add-on business).
Spec compatibility, when used in the "satisfy the buyer preferences" process is a useful tool to EXCLUDE components that are unlikely to fit the buyer's preferences (or each other) - but not the sole criteria for INCLUSION.
This is a subjective pastime and any attempt to apply purely objective criteria for system building is likely miss the target of buyer satisfaction - and result in little or no add-on business. (SALES 101)
This post probably sounds like a nit-pick on semantics but selling audio demands effective communication (bi-directional) between buyer and seller...
Dave
JohnW
pfm member
I cannot agree, IMO this is an often quoted ""Cheap shot" at tube designs. I have Tube designs that have very low levels of distortion yet still retain that "tube" natural / organic sound - a sound that is innately right to my ears.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/Tdac proto 1KHz 2Vrms.jpg
A good Tube design with 0.00025% THD, yet still retains the positive virtues of "Tubes"
wyjsar
Nothing but heart
A review has gone up just today on cyrusunofficial Whaleblue.
music fiend
life lusting
murphythecat
pfm Member
So you are implying that all well design DAC/AMPS/ Speakers are perfectly neutral?
Some equipment are more smoth then others, some with better bass, some with more bass, some with bit more harsh treble, some with soft treble. Some with better soundstage then others, ECT. Same with amps, DAC and Speakers.
So I think its really important to combine amps/speakers/dacs in order to have a good synergy.
Pure class d still use switching noise for high powered class d as far as I know...
Im not sure id agree that tube amps are more coloured then class d or class a/ab either.
But Ill hapily admit that I have not personally heard the high powered class d. All I know is that ive seen enough people I trust try Abletec module, Hypex module, and describe the sound of class D and more or less have the same issue that my foray in lower power class d such as ta2020/ta2021/tpa3116 seem to fit.
merlin
Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.
The first two should be in 2016 really.
Sorry Keith, can't agree.
My speakers are 94db/w efficient. In theory a 2A3 amp should drive them with ease.
I've driven them with a Bel Canto tripath for close on 10 years, and it sounded great. Swapped to Quad QSP recently, which is one of their current dumping units based on the 606/909 design. Clearly it'll be spending most of it's time in Class A mode with my speakers.
I can assure that it most certainly does NOT sound the same.
Singslinger
pfm Member
To answer the OP, I've owned two class D amps - the MBL Corona C51 integrated and Jeff Rowland's Continuum S2.
My experience using them to drive my ProAc Response K6 speakers was that they are very different, leading me to conclude that it is not possible to say categorically that they are superior or inferior to class A or AB designs.
Between the two, I found the S2 to have the slight edge - it had a bit more detail and air, even if the C51 had a bit more body.
As other before me have discussed, synergy and matching with one's speakers are essential.
My experience using them to drive my ProAc Response K6 speakers was that they are very different, leading me to conclude that it is not possible to say categorically that they are superior or inferior to class A or AB designs.
Between the two, I found the S2 to have the slight edge - it had a bit more detail and air, even if the C51 had a bit more body.
As other before me have discussed, synergy and matching with one's speakers are essential.
Andrew.B
pfm Member
Chi-fi T amps have imo being the most disruptive presence in amplification for years, they happily equal much more expensive amps, are tiny, incredibly efficient/cool running and are the ideal replacement for many tired old amps just as LED bulbs are, finally, great replacements for incandescents.
I'm guessing their uptake was slow because companies have tried and tested class AB designs which differ slightly with each new model/stratification but are ultimately a known quantity they can bank on and that they know how to sell; huge shiny filter caps, huge transformers, big knobs, etc, where-as T amps and the technology behind them are not so assured, they die if shorted, also the supply of chips might not be secure enough, etc?
I'm guessing their uptake was slow because companies have tried and tested class AB designs which differ slightly with each new model/stratification but are ultimately a known quantity they can bank on and that they know how to sell; huge shiny filter caps, huge transformers, big knobs, etc, where-as T amps and the technology behind them are not so assured, they die if shorted, also the supply of chips might not be secure enough, etc?
100% agree with this - I would run a mile from any hi-fi dealer who tried to make me choose on objective measurements alone. Remember buying an expensive turntable in the 70's?
"You see sir, all turntables sound the same so no need to demonstrate - just look at the specs of this one though, superb aren't they?"
Disbeliever
pfm Member
DeVilleEars Of the US manufacturers of Class D amps you mention the only one I have auditioned was from Bel Canto and it was absolute rubbish made me feel ill had to turn it off. Devialet have Class A mixed in with their Class D. B & W who distribute Rotel do not recommend using a Rotel Class D amplifier with their speakers. I do not like the Primare Class D amp or others I have auditioned despite having received good reviews. Class AB still the best for me.