Subharmonicon
pfm Member
Going from cirkus to karousel and from old steel sub chassis to kore. What could one expect?
Cirkus to karousel difference
- Thread starter Subharmonicon
- Start date
JezmondTutu
pfm Member
Cannot comment as went from a black bearing but you might find this useful if you haven’t already read it:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/lp12-karousel-upgrade.252954/
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/lp12-karousel-upgrade.252954/
Subharmonicon
pfm Member
Ahhhh.... Thanks for the connection
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
@Subharmonicon
There are a ton of threads on the topic of LINN KAROUSEL bearing, on this and other audio forums.
We bunny-hopped the CIRKUS BEARING and jumped straight from the PRE-CIRKUS to the KAROUSEL - so I can't tell you anything about CIRKUS v KAROUSEL.
In any event, the LINN KAROUSEL bearing has been a revelation, in most regards. It is a very relaxed, balanced and mature sound - like an LP12 for grown-ups, if that makes sense. Hard to describe, but easy to hear.
But nothing is perfect - and I’m being super-picky here - but I feel that the KAROUSEL bearing introduces a very slight - but noticeable - “dryness” to the sound. I will probably be well and truly whipped by the LINN devotees for making such a comment, but I am just calling it as I hear it.
Still, I believe the KAROUSEL is very well worth the cost and effort - just not perfect. But what is?
[Worth noting that I installed the new KAROUSEL bearing well before I eventually removed the original LINN springs and replaced them with AUDIOSILENTE SILICONE MUSHROOMS - a whole other story...
]
Upgrading the original LINN pressed-steel sub-chassis is a no-brainer. I've not heard the LINN KEEL, LINN KORE or LINN MAJIK sub-chassis, but we are very happy with the gorgeous and cost-effective STACK AUDIO ALTO sub-chassis. It fits our LP12 like a hand in a glove. Worth mentioning too, that THEO STACK is one of the real gentlemen of the audio business - an absolute pleasure to deal with.
There are a ton of threads on the topic of LINN KAROUSEL bearing, on this and other audio forums.
We bunny-hopped the CIRKUS BEARING and jumped straight from the PRE-CIRKUS to the KAROUSEL - so I can't tell you anything about CIRKUS v KAROUSEL.
In any event, the LINN KAROUSEL bearing has been a revelation, in most regards. It is a very relaxed, balanced and mature sound - like an LP12 for grown-ups, if that makes sense. Hard to describe, but easy to hear.
But nothing is perfect - and I’m being super-picky here - but I feel that the KAROUSEL bearing introduces a very slight - but noticeable - “dryness” to the sound. I will probably be well and truly whipped by the LINN devotees for making such a comment, but I am just calling it as I hear it.
Still, I believe the KAROUSEL is very well worth the cost and effort - just not perfect. But what is?
[Worth noting that I installed the new KAROUSEL bearing well before I eventually removed the original LINN springs and replaced them with AUDIOSILENTE SILICONE MUSHROOMS - a whole other story...
]Upgrading the original LINN pressed-steel sub-chassis is a no-brainer. I've not heard the LINN KEEL, LINN KORE or LINN MAJIK sub-chassis, but we are very happy with the gorgeous and cost-effective STACK AUDIO ALTO sub-chassis. It fits our LP12 like a hand in a glove. Worth mentioning too, that THEO STACK is one of the real gentlemen of the audio business - an absolute pleasure to deal with.
Miss Ariel
pfm Member
SONDEKNZ
I Couldn't agree more with your comments as I did exactly the same Black Liner bearing to Karousel but with a Majik sub chassis.
Yeah the Karousel is a very good upgrade it digs more detail out and there's a seamless integration between the bass and midrange
and the top end .Much more detail.Its really lowered the noise floor and it never seems to get caught out if there's alot of instruments on the record like a big orchestra etc.A real in control feel about the sound.Maybe it" s my Lingo 4 imparting its character.
Like you I do sometimes think there is a dryness to the sound its a different sound to the original black liner bearing its so much clearer and CD like in terms of quietness with a well cleaned record.
However I still sometimes miss my black liner bearing Linn.I always remember it coming back from a service with new springs and belt and a new lid and a new AT 95 ML cartridge on it and it had that LP 12 engagement with the upper bass bloom. Which to me was the foundation of the original Linn sound it really got my feet tapping .And it was so engaging and exciting with especially rock music.
I know it wasn't accurate but breathed this excitement in a way the Karousel doesn't .
Karousel is definitely better and from a lower noise floor and digging out detail way but I do find it a bit sterile compared to the magic of the old.
I would love to hear those 2 decks side by side .
A mate years ago had a LP2 Ekos Troika and his Linn dealer said you have got to try the Cirkus and he installed it and my mate had it for a week or two and hated it and took it back and had his black liner bearing put back in and he said what he loved about the sound was back ....
I Couldn't agree more with your comments as I did exactly the same Black Liner bearing to Karousel but with a Majik sub chassis.
Yeah the Karousel is a very good upgrade it digs more detail out and there's a seamless integration between the bass and midrange
and the top end .Much more detail.Its really lowered the noise floor and it never seems to get caught out if there's alot of instruments on the record like a big orchestra etc.A real in control feel about the sound.Maybe it" s my Lingo 4 imparting its character.
Like you I do sometimes think there is a dryness to the sound its a different sound to the original black liner bearing its so much clearer and CD like in terms of quietness with a well cleaned record.
However I still sometimes miss my black liner bearing Linn.I always remember it coming back from a service with new springs and belt and a new lid and a new AT 95 ML cartridge on it and it had that LP 12 engagement with the upper bass bloom. Which to me was the foundation of the original Linn sound it really got my feet tapping .And it was so engaging and exciting with especially rock music.
I know it wasn't accurate but breathed this excitement in a way the Karousel doesn't .
Karousel is definitely better and from a lower noise floor and digging out detail way but I do find it a bit sterile compared to the magic of the old.
I would love to hear those 2 decks side by side .
A mate years ago had a LP2 Ekos Troika and his Linn dealer said you have got to try the Cirkus and he installed it and my mate had it for a week or two and hated it and took it back and had his black liner bearing put back in and he said what he loved about the sound was back ....
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From old steel sub chassis to Kore ... much more resolution.
From Cirkus to Karousel ... noise floor drops.
From springs to Audio Silente silicone mushrooms ... much more liveliness to the sound.
Alun Rains
Jus Juan Cornetto
I went from black liner bearing to Cirkus to Karousel.
The Cirkus bearing brought more accuracy to the sound but lacked the overall musicality of the black liner bearing.
For me, the Karousel offers the best of what the Cirkus bearing offered with a real engaging musicality to the sound, lower noise floor too.
I have the Stack Alto sub-chassis and Alto arm-board, a combination that I believe offers performance between the Kore and Keel.
The Cirkus bearing brought more accuracy to the sound but lacked the overall musicality of the black liner bearing.
For me, the Karousel offers the best of what the Cirkus bearing offered with a real engaging musicality to the sound, lower noise floor too.
I have the Stack Alto sub-chassis and Alto arm-board, a combination that I believe offers performance between the Kore and Keel.
John
Rack’em Up!
I wonder how many folks praising the virtues of the Karousel bearing had it fitted where it was the only variable changed on their LP12? Not fitted in concert with a new subchassis, cartridge, belt, power supply, etc…
I’ve been a bit skeptical of another very expensive Linn upgrade that replaces a part that appears to be perfectly adequate and in fine condition.
I’ve been a bit skeptical of another very expensive Linn upgrade that replaces a part that appears to be perfectly adequate and in fine condition.
NickofWimbledon
pfm Member
I had a Cirkus with Kore, Ekos1, Krystal and L4. We had the Karousel fitted. It got a tiny bit less fluffy warmth in the bass, but also got a good deal quieter and hence notably better at showing small details.
Later I got a Stiletto LP12 with Ekos, Keel, Radikal,
Skorpion base et al. It had a Cirkus so we swapped the bearings over.
The old LP12 lost the last ounce of detail and we noticed a bit less stereo image clarity and low-level detail and perhaps a touch more sibilance, but the gap was small. The Stiletto got the reverse of those points from swapping in the Karousel, and probably showed the difference more clearly than the Kore-based LP12 could.
To my old ears, the swap from Kore/ L4 to Keel/Radikal was bigger than the change from swapping bearings from Cirkus to Karousel. However, given the cost (which the other two
Listeners knew nothing about), that is probably just as well.
The Cirkus to Karousel swap is imho a worthwhile upgrade with no downside, and better value than some Linn bits. To my best recollection, the big presentational change (more detail and less warm fluff) was from black bearing to Cirkus.
On the other hand, it is better to believe your own ears, not my recollection.
Later I got a Stiletto LP12 with Ekos, Keel, Radikal,
Skorpion base et al. It had a Cirkus so we swapped the bearings over.
The old LP12 lost the last ounce of detail and we noticed a bit less stereo image clarity and low-level detail and perhaps a touch more sibilance, but the gap was small. The Stiletto got the reverse of those points from swapping in the Karousel, and probably showed the difference more clearly than the Kore-based LP12 could.
To my old ears, the swap from Kore/ L4 to Keel/Radikal was bigger than the change from swapping bearings from Cirkus to Karousel. However, given the cost (which the other two
Listeners knew nothing about), that is probably just as well.
The Cirkus to Karousel swap is imho a worthwhile upgrade with no downside, and better value than some Linn bits. To my best recollection, the big presentational change (more detail and less warm fluff) was from black bearing to Cirkus.
On the other hand, it is better to believe your own ears, not my recollection.
llatpoh
LP12 Heretic
I've never used a Keel and will definitely never pay its asking price, but I don't see how it would be an improvement over a StackAudio Alto sub-chassis/armboard combination, unless of course any merit is given to Linn's "lossy connection" propaganda.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
I agree: I doubt there is much sonic difference between LINN KEEL versus STACK AUDIO ALTO sub-chassis and armboard.
I'm not sure I understand your quip about the merits of LINN's "lossy connection" propaganda, though.
The fact is, the old (original) LINN sub-chassis and armboard connection was as lossy as an ill-fitting dunny-seat.
But both the LINN KEEL and the STACK AUDIO ALTO sub-chassis and armboard share the fact that there is a rock-solid bond between their sub-chassis and armboard; with the KEEL being of a piece and the STACK AUDIO being heavily bolted proper tight.
What have I missed?
llatpoh
LP12 Heretic
The argument is that if the sub-chassis is not one piece, including the arm collar, the connections secured with machine bolts are "lossy". Videos have been disseminated online where Linn engineers ping a Keel to show how the lack of lossy connections make it ring like a bell, like if resonances in a turntable were a good thing.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Okay. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
Going down that path, they would never convince this rooster.
Like you, I would never pay the massive premium asked for the KEEL. I'm not dissing it though. I can see that it is a great product, but NOT because it rings like a bell!
Howdy
pfm Member
That would be me.
Apart from much lowered noise floor that everyone raves about - and which I don't care about too much, because, well, I don't listen to music because of silences - Karousel also definitely boogies better, drums attack is just spectacular - think Andy's Chest ... actually whole album Transformer sounds greater than ever - but also lesser sounding albums are enjoyable - think Rain Dogs.
It's almost as if it's the last upgrade you'll ever need. (I will get Kore one day and I will service my Lingo 1, but I'm in no hurry)
It was my second biggest upgrade, right after at440mla to at33ptg/ii.
But bigger than Khan or any phono stage or Herc to Lingo or whatever i ever did.
But, hm, it was also probably the most expensive.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I had both Stack Alto and Karousel fitted at the same time. Previously the deck was baking-tray/Cirkus. Long ago I had a Greenstreet (clone of Keel) fitted, but I regressed from it after listening to many Klimax Sondeks and deciding that even if you spend the full twenty grand there are competitive decks at a fraction of the price. I determined to stop throwing money at it.
The Alto and Karousel were therefore my return to Sondek ricing after about fifteen years. As with all Sondek upgrades I think the audible differences were quite marginal and I take with a pinch of salt the stories about the dog running into the house, fetching the master's favourite tie-dye bandana and grooving like a Pict at the equilateral listening position. The In-Soles offer a lot more bang for buck to my ears. I don't regret having the Alto and Karousel installed, but the improvements are not so great that I could recommend it.
Before spending £900 on a Sondek bearing upgrade I would recommend putting your tonearm on some other decks, for example a Technics SL-1210 Mk7. It could save you a lot of money. If you add the £900 you might spend on a Karousel to the used value of your deck there are a lot of options out there. If you've heard them all on a level playing field and you still want a Karousel, good luck to you, but I suspect that many Karousel buyers haven't done much careful turntable comparison, and as had been said, the Karousel upgrade will normally involve set up and maintenance (e.g. a new belt), so there's very little semi-reliable quasi-scientific assessment.
If you want to work towards the best Sondek ever, it's a must. If you're looking for the best turntable you can afford, keep your powder dry.
The Alto and Karousel were therefore my return to Sondek ricing after about fifteen years. As with all Sondek upgrades I think the audible differences were quite marginal and I take with a pinch of salt the stories about the dog running into the house, fetching the master's favourite tie-dye bandana and grooving like a Pict at the equilateral listening position. The In-Soles offer a lot more bang for buck to my ears. I don't regret having the Alto and Karousel installed, but the improvements are not so great that I could recommend it.
Before spending £900 on a Sondek bearing upgrade I would recommend putting your tonearm on some other decks, for example a Technics SL-1210 Mk7. It could save you a lot of money. If you add the £900 you might spend on a Karousel to the used value of your deck there are a lot of options out there. If you've heard them all on a level playing field and you still want a Karousel, good luck to you, but I suspect that many Karousel buyers haven't done much careful turntable comparison, and as had been said, the Karousel upgrade will normally involve set up and maintenance (e.g. a new belt), so there's very little semi-reliable quasi-scientific assessment.
If you want to work towards the best Sondek ever, it's a must. If you're looking for the best turntable you can afford, keep your powder dry.
Howdy
pfm Member
Richard! Here you are biased, have your own interest and are just plain wrong.
Subharmonicon
pfm Member
and so it starts...
I did just the Cirkus-to-Karousel change; actually Cirkus + Tranquility to Karousel + Tranqu!
Linn do their engineering and introduce something that changes - generally improves - the LP12's sound. I don't find that to be a problem - surely, the problem is the huge price they charge for the new part!
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
In an effort to really understand what a new component brings to the table (pun), I never change more than one thing at a time on our turntable, amp or anything else.
That said, I had no choice with the KAROUSEL as our old pressed-steel LINN sub-chassis was too thin to provide bearing stability.
So, the KAROUSEL went into the new STACK AUDIO TENOR sub-chassis and in they went. No regrets.
Our new STACK AUDIO TENOR armboard will be arriving in the next few weeks, so really looking forward to listening to that new combo.
As always, the buyer reserves the right to NOT make a purchase, so I have no problem with LINN pricing.
That said, I regularly exercise my right NOT to make a purchase - and buy something from a third-party that IMHO offers superior value for money - and occasionally, better performance.
I have no issue with the LINN approach and as an LP12 owner and feel that there is something for everyone.
I'm also very thankful that my 30+ year-old turntable can still be upgraded to face-off against the best.
Happy camper!
That said, I had no choice with the KAROUSEL as our old pressed-steel LINN sub-chassis was too thin to provide bearing stability.
So, the KAROUSEL went into the new STACK AUDIO TENOR sub-chassis and in they went. No regrets.
Our new STACK AUDIO TENOR armboard will be arriving in the next few weeks, so really looking forward to listening to that new combo.
As always, the buyer reserves the right to NOT make a purchase, so I have no problem with LINN pricing.
That said, I regularly exercise my right NOT to make a purchase - and buy something from a third-party that IMHO offers superior value for money - and occasionally, better performance.
I have no issue with the LINN approach and as an LP12 owner and feel that there is something for everyone.
I'm also very thankful that my 30+ year-old turntable can still be upgraded to face-off against the best.
Happy camper!
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If, as I understand it, the Stack armboard is rigidly fixed (bolted?) to the Stack sub-chassis ... then you should hear an extra layer of detail revealed, Tony.
It was possible to get Keel-level detail retrieval 25 years ago, by buying a Cetech subchassis - as the Cetech was designed to have its armboard bolted on. In my view, all the negative comments about the sound with a Cetech came about because people tightened up the nuts too much; this caused the bolt heads to stress the top skin of the armboard - which queered the sound. The optimal way of attaching an armboard to a Cetech is by epoxying 3 ss collets into the armboard - so the bolt-heads rest on them and not the top skin of the armboard. And optimal sound comes from having an armboard made from a CF/balsa/CF sandwich, rather than using a Linn armboard.