I'm going to bet your LP12 had a Linn arm and probably an Ittok because that's what does that. It is not a characteristic of the deck itself. At least it wasn't back then.
Cirkus to karousel difference
- Thread starter Subharmonicon
- Start date
I'm going to bet your LP12 had a Linn arm and probably an Ittok because that's what does that. It is not a characteristic of the deck itself. At least it wasn't back then.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Agreed. Whilst I can't speak for @Salamander, we moved-on from a (mint) ITTOK and you are exactly right.
John
Rack’em Up!
Ditching the springs is a fundamental improvement and makes other LP12 upgrades including third party seem like a ripoff.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I don't really think this happened. I've owned my Sondek for 40 years and I'm listening to it right now and enjoying it. I've tried many upgrades, bought some, baulked at others. I think that gives me the right to share my views on it, just as others do.
I'm prepared to talk critically about any of my turntables. I know that can be unwelcome, but there are other people on forums trying to get the opinions of experienced users to help them make decisions about how to improve their systems, and I hope that at some point my freely expressed opinions have helped somebody, somewhere, just a little, to weigh up some of the factors that influence buying decisions. I know that I myself am very grateful to forum contributors who share knowledge, information and opinions for free - your generosity has certainly been a great help to me. It's reasonable to seek other people's views based on experience before spending £900 on a simple rotating bearing.
Salamander
pfm Member
I had the Cirkus, never got as far as the Karousel. The final upgrade was the top plate although had I kept it I would have gone with the Sole.
Salamander
pfm Member
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Your post sparked me into action - to research the STST MOTUS II...
I agree with the sentiment of this post, but your pricing numbers are way off, so this particular point of yours quickly loses traction.
The STST MOTUS II looks like a very interesting table, but appears to cost closer to £8,000 without a tonearm. Add close to another £4,000 for the STST tonearm and you are up to nearly £12,000. (Not to mention shipping...)
With all of its upgrades - including a new tonearm - I have spent nowhere near £12,000 on our LP12 - not even half of that.
Just keepin' it real...
'
Salamander
pfm Member
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
No drama. I think sonddek's point was that all the upgrades add up over time. And it's true!
I don’t know what I could buy a TECHNICS 1200G for, here in China, but probably much the same as in the west. Imported stuff is still costly here.
The only way I could ever compare the TECHNICS to our LP12, is to buy one. That’s unlikely to happen, especially when our LP12 has improved so much over the last year or two.
Last edited:
Salamander
pfm Member
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Yes, Salamander.
It took more than a year for our personal belongings from NZ - including LP12, vinyl, tube amps, speakers, etc. etc. - to be delivered to us in China.
It was during COVID’s worst global attack… enough said.
These days, used LP12s can be had for very little - and easily be tweaked to sound world class.
Add the fact that they are quite a clean and attractive design - especially sans-flutes - I think they have become one of the greatest bargains in all of audio.
Not for everyone, of course. But what is?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Your post sparked me into action - to research the STST MOTUS II...
I agree with the sentiment of this post, but your pricing numbers are way off, so this particular point of yours quickly loses traction.
The STST MOTUS II looks like a very interesting table, but appears to cost closer to £8,000 without a tonearm. Add close to another £4,000 for the STST tonearm and you are up to nearly £12,000. (Not to mention shipping...)
With all of its upgrades - including a new tonearm - I have spent nowhere near £12,000 on our LP12 - not even half of that.
Just keepin' it real...
Sorry for that - I did a google price search and the first link which came up was this:
https://www.kronosav.com/products/s...=fbf29b5b63ead620d1a726ef7d3f05fb&fo_s=gsuruk
I don't know why it's listed so cheap there. Maybe it's second hand or maybe it's a scam.
My claim was that at about three grand you are in the arena of some very nice turntables, and being a tightwad I always consider second hand prices too. I stand by what I said: once you have three grand for a new or used turntable there are some very nice decks in the firing line, decks which I think can challenge a Karousel Sondek in many ways. As has been said, some people are looking for the best turntable sound they can afford and some people are looking to upgrade their Sondeks. I'm just saying that those two aims don't necessarily overlap. I bought my Stack Alto and Karousel to upgrade my Sondek, not because I thought they would make it better than my other decks. If you're on a budget or if you want the best-sounding turntable you can afford, look around before installing a Karousel. It's a good upgrade, but not the second coming.
Howdy
pfm Member
I think this thread is way beyond any possibility to steer back to the intent of OP.
So, I'll point out that I find strange the amount of pfmers and their zealousness about Linn and Naim prices, in particular.
Of course some of their prices seem appalling or at least laughable. But even more so are price lists of Harbeth, Pro-Ac, PMC and many more, yet this companies somehow don't attract haters and nobody calls Harbeth, Pro-Ac, PMC owners "Harbeth-, Pro-Ac-, PMC-sheep".
So, I'll point out that I find strange the amount of pfmers and their zealousness about Linn and Naim prices, in particular.
Of course some of their prices seem appalling or at least laughable. But even more so are price lists of Harbeth, Pro-Ac, PMC and many more, yet this companies somehow don't attract haters and nobody calls Harbeth, Pro-Ac, PMC owners "Harbeth-, Pro-Ac-, PMC-sheep".
John
Rack’em Up!
I was a bit taken aback when you purchased the Alto and Karousel given your attitude regarding the LP12. I would have thought you would have jumped on the Analogue Innovation In-Soles well before that if you were being more considered.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I am by no means a Linn hater. I use two Uphoriks and active 242s. I think Linn has done a great service by promoting the source first principle and musical merit above measurement merit.
Most of their products are very well made and the Magik and Akurate lines especially can be good value for money. Most of the digital and aluminium ingot stuff is beyond my budget, but that's my fault, not theirs.
The problem is that you get labelled a 'hater' if you break the taboo by opining that there are better turntables than the LP12, even if you still own one and still love it despite its faults. When I get labelled a 'Linn hater' I just put it down to the dying gasps of an extremist cult. There is no contradiction between my admiration for Linn and my suspicion that there are better value and better-performing turntables than the LP12.
Linn products have a world-class reputation and they manufacture in the UK. Long live Linn!
Most of their products are very well made and the Magik and Akurate lines especially can be good value for money. Most of the digital and aluminium ingot stuff is beyond my budget, but that's my fault, not theirs.
The problem is that you get labelled a 'hater' if you break the taboo by opining that there are better turntables than the LP12, even if you still own one and still love it despite its faults. When I get labelled a 'Linn hater' I just put it down to the dying gasps of an extremist cult. There is no contradiction between my admiration for Linn and my suspicion that there are better value and better-performing turntables than the LP12.
Linn products have a world-class reputation and they manufacture in the UK. Long live Linn!
sktn77a
pfm Member
Went from a Cirkus subchassis/bearing to a Karousel/Kore. Unfortunately, I also upgraded from a 25 year old Valhalla to a brand new Lingo 4 at the same time so the comparison isn't really the best. Honestly, the improvements were small. A bit more clarity in the bass and midrange - wasn't sure what to expect.
Was it worth almost $4000? Probably not.
Was it worth almost $4000? Probably not.
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
Well, you went from a +3 to a +7 on a scale of 1 to 10 when you went from an aging Valhalla to a Lingo. But then you went from a +5 -white lined bearing- or a +8 -if black lined- to a -3 Cirkus bearing so the change was somewhat cancelled out. ...And I understand these are very different upgrades, speed stability & drive Vs. a failed attempt at extracting more from the groove but at the cost of losing some grip of the performance, so once the tune got distorted you went backwards. ...Yes, the tune, that most basic thing about music listening that Linn told us was fundamental to long term enjoyment and what Linn once used when evaluating the LP12's performance by design and what helped make that LP12 a legend in the first place. But then it was also Linn that conveniently lost sight of the tune along the way in order to continually cash in on never ending upgrades that in a crazy turn of events has left many upgrade path consumers longing for something they had in the first place on their earlier decks.
The LP12 design was maximized for tune over 30 years ago, these days Linn is banking on endless sound effect upgrades, brand identification and nostalgia.
rkay5
Active Member
I have used both In-Soles and AUDIO SILENTE Silicone Mushrooms on each of my LP12s. One has a Stack Audio Alto top plate, and the new Alto+ sub-chassis with mushrooms, arm board is Atlo Linn mount with Tiger Paw Javelin. The other with In-Soles has the Sole VIII sub-chassis with Rega mount board and a Roksan Sara tonearm Tiger Paw Khan top plate. Both sound great. I feel the mushrooms are a hair better but I will not ever go back to springs.