Christmas Wine III

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Not that it can't give pleasure in between, I think just his personal preference for it to show at it's best.

I think it is perhaps that some wines start off with lots of fruit, and lose that fruitiness but gain complexity in other areas, as they age. Those problem middle years are when much of the early fruit has gone, but the complexity hasn't emerged or developed enough to satisfy, so what you are left with is something that just tastes tired and spent.

 

[eternumviti]

Not so much 'tired and spend' as closed up. It's a transitory phase that can go on for some years. Ch Musar is well known for it.

 

[PsB]

Not so much 'tired and spend' as closed up. It's a transitory phase that can go on for some years. Ch Musar is well known for it.

Pommard, too. (Still waiting for some to open up 20 years later, grrrr.)

 

[mandryka]

I wonder if that's what's going on with the 2015 Telegramme which I'm drinking now as I type this message. It's fine, quite nice, but not a great wine by any means (IMO obvs.) It feels a bit . . . reticent . . . . can't think of a better word. Perhaps I should have waited till 2030.

 

[eternumviti]

Pommard, too. (Still waiting for some to open up 20 years later, grrrr.)

Ha, the door to that one might well stay shut! Whose is it, and what vintage?

I wonder if that's what's going on with the 2015 Telegramme which I'm drinking now as I type this message. It's fine, quite nice, but not a great wine by any means (IMO obvs.) It feels a bit . . . reticent . . . . can't think of a better word. Perhaps I should have waited till 2030.

Telegramme is really designed to be drunk from release, its not really thought of or intended as a keeper. Young vines, less ripe or well-located plots, barrels or cuves rejected for the Telegraphe, etc.

 

[mandryka]

Telegramme is really designed to be drunk from release, its not really thought of or intended as a keeper. Young vines, less ripe or well-located plots, barrels or cuves rejected for the Telegraphe, etc.

Ah, maybe it's past it best now, or never was a "great wine"

 

[PsB]

Ha, the door to that one might well stay shut! Whose is it, and what vintage?

I'd have to check, but IIRC the culprits were from Chateau de Pommard, bought in the early 90s. So probably vintages from the late 80s or very early 90s.

I had also bought reds from Rebourgeon-Mure, also in the early 90s. IIRC those were mostly Volnay, drunk reasonably successfully 8-10+ years later, but they were also slightly underwhelming versus price paid. I kept wines in my father's cellar in those days as we were moving all the time, and it really wasn't the greatest cellar for keeping wines more than 3-5 years. It seemed to accelerate everything.

 

[wacko]

Not so much 'tired and spend' as closed up. It's a transitory phase that can go on for some years. Ch Musar is well known for it.

I have Musar 1998, 2003, 2010, 2015 and 2016. Haven't had any of the last 3 yet, and little of the 2003.
So mainly the 1998, and mostly over the last two years. (and some 1999 which is finished and was lovely)
Musar is well known for bottle variation and I have noticed that. I may be biased but IMO it varies from good to superb.
How many years after vintage do you think Musar closes up ? Seems most likely to be 4-9 as they are not released until Year 7, sometimes later. I wouldn't drink one below Year 10 anyway as they are improving rapidly when that young.

 

[Marchbanks]

I reckon this ‘dumb phase’ business is best explained by part of Clive Coates’ law of Maturity. (Scroll down to near the bottom). Different aspects of a wine evolve at different rates, so - simplifying horrendously - if after a few years the initial fruity bit is on the way down but the complex bit hasn’t yet started, it may seem rather uninteresting for a while. On the other hand, to paraphrase a quote further up, no-one really understands what causes it or how long it will last - and it seems to vary from bottle to bottle, ie on a micro-scale rather than by vineyard, grape variety or region.

 

[wacko]

^ Tks MB. Since no customers drink Musar until Year 7/8 that implies that most of the bottles will have passed the dumb phase but not all. The easiest solution is not to drink them until after Year 10. Musar is well known for evolving well past that though.
I am certainly as guilty as anyone of drinking some wines too young (the Coudoulet massacre comes to mind) out of sheer necessity or rampant curiosity. Musar has now brought out junior wines for early drinking.

 

[Dogberry]

Coates "law".
", the principle states that a wine will remain at its peak (or optimal) drinking quality for a duration of time that is equal to the time of maturation required to reach its optimal quality. "
Well that seems pretty unambiguous.

 

[wacko]

All this talk of Musar has made me thirsty.
Confit de canard this evening is all the excuse I needed...

 

[eternumviti]

I'd have to check, but IIRC the culprits were from Chateau de Pommard, bought in the early 90s. So probably vintages from the late 80s or very early 90s.

I had also bought reds from Rebourgeon-Mure, also in the early 90s. IIRC those were mostly Volnay, drunk reasonably successfully 8-10+ years later, but they were also slightly underwhelming versus price paid. I kept wines in my father's cellar in those days as we were moving all the time, and it really wasn't the greatest cellar for keeping wines more than 3-5 years. It seemed to accelerate everything.

Ooh, I think you'll be jolly lucky if any of those Pommards have much left to offer.

 

[Marchbanks]

Wandering around Waitrose my sixth sense was getting agitated. Something was happening - but where? Aha, over there… yellow-stickered bottles are being placed on a shelf. I trotted over as quickly as dignity permitted. Chateau Liversan! I remembered the name, even if the label had changed. One of the first decent clarets I ever bought, back when I was but a lad. I had Hugh Johnson’s pocket book as my guide then, and he rated it. What vintage would that have been? 1971? No, I reckon 1975. Strange how the good years stick in your memory. I leant forward in order to see the price. Bloody hell! I wiped away my sentimental tear and filled my carrier bag. When I got to the checkout another 5% was knocked off as I had bought half-a-dozen. A 2015 Cru Bourgeois for £5.25 or so. Result, I’d say. Too good to waste, indeed.

 

[wacko]

^ Waitrose must have a huge stock to slash the price like that. Surely 2015 is OK for another year or so ? At £5.25 you can even give some to your cook to use on something fancy.

 

[Marchbanks]

^ Waitrose must have a huge stock to slash the price like that. Surely 2015 is OK for another year or so ? At £5.25 you can even give some to your cook to use on something fancy.

I noticed last night it had nothing but scathing reviews on the Waitrose Cellar site and a mixture of one-star and five-star on the groceries site. Bad storage somewhere along the way perhaps? But if Waitrose punters buy wine based on Waitrose reviews, they won’t buy this... and maybe that‘s why there’s a price-slash dumping taking place.

I’m pleased to say the bottle I opened tonight is fine. Fairly austere, CS-heavy, blackcurrants, cedar, a hint of acidity at the end and still quite tannic. Rather good, in fact. If I’d picked it up for 10€ or so in France I’d feel quite smug, so I’m delighted with a fiver. No desperate rush, I feel - I’ll try the next around Easter.

 

[mandryka]

From my notes…



2017 Husseau - drunk 3/22 ‘lovely’.

2016 Husseau is lovely. Maybe, just maybe, a bit too much grapefruit at first for me but still, I'm very tempted to get some more.

 

[andrew d]

I misread that as Chateau Liverscan... Perhaps others have made the same mistake and Waitrose are offloading it so as not to scare off those who over indulged over the festive break.

 

[Marchbanks]

I misread that as Chateau Liverscan... Perhaps others have made the same mistake and Waitrose are offloading it so as not to scare off those who over indulged over the festive break.

Fair point. Maybe they should stick it on the shelf in the pharmacy section next to Dr Loosen, the famous German expectorant?

 

[PsB]

^ (Marchbanks Sir, I know you don’t like likes, but that was funny)