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Chord MScaler - not that impressed

It’s a shame really. My gut feeling is that Keith is nice person with great room correction knowledge. He has a viewpoint on digital audio in particular which he can’t allow others to differ with or at least feels the need to educate. We all need a little “live and let live” in our make up to help everyone chill.
 
You post a lot, almost evangelically about all “competently designed” DACs measure/sound identical and imply spending a lot more money on one DAC vs another DAC based on sound quality is wasted money, agreed? You imply above that Chord are not being honest and spouting marketing BS.

If you believe the above what reason is there to sell a Mola Mola Tambaqui as well as SONCOZ to your customers, whose best interests you should have in mind? Does the Mola Mola sound the same as the SONCOZ cos they measure nigh on identically at Pink Panther site, and you imply they will. If so is the extra £8K for the casework? Your posts convey the message you don’t believe in expensive DACs yet sell them.

According to your post the SONCOZ would only sound audibly worse than the Mola Mola if it was a dogs breakfast of a design. From reading Internet posts and reports it appears the Mola Mola had a design goal of being the best “measuring” DAC on the planet, not the best “sounding” DAC, so what’s the point if it sounds the same as most modern ChiFi DACs.
Yes that’s right I couldn’t recommend the Tambaqui in terms of sound quality, although if you really want a smart case...
I would advise looking at speakers and your room if you are thinking of spending £8k on a dac.
Keith
 
Until you can demonstrate that you have sufficient knowledge to slag off products which others sell (inverted shilling) and people have bought, you have no right to be taken seriously and instead you are likely to regarded as a blind (or should that be deaf) fanatic hell bent on spreading fear, doubt and uncertainty in the minds of anyone who has had the good sense to form their own judgement.

Keith is expressing an evidence-based opinion that's contrary to his own financial interests; if this is some sort of dastardly plot, it's a strange one!

Here's an alternative scenario: decades ago, high-fidelity DACs were costly, but time has marched on and now the same level of performance is relatively cheap, a la any number of consumer goods. This evolution theorem is backed up by measurements, far more sensitive than what you can get with your ears, finding that the output of modern lower-cost DACs are accurate within the range of human hearing.

If we subbed in "USB cable" for "DAC" in this thread, I feel that the conversation would be taking a very different course. Keith's skepticism is healthy, IMHO, particularly in a discussion forum.
 
Yes that’s right I couldn’t recommend the Tambaqui in terms of sound quality, although if you really want a smart case...
I would advise looking at speakers and your room if you are thinking of spending £8k on a dac.
Keith
Keith is expressing an evidence-based opinion that's contrary to his own financial interests; if this is some sort of dastardly plot, it's a strange one!

Here's an alternative scenario: decades ago, high-fidelity DACs were costly, but time has marched on and now the same level of performance is relatively cheap, a la any number of consumer goods. This evolution theorem is backed up by measurements, far more sensitive than what you can get with your ears, finding that the output of modern lower-cost DACs are accurate within the range of human hearing.

If we subbed in "USB cable" for "DAC" in this thread, I feel that the conversation would be taking a very different course. Keith's skepticism is healthy, IMHO, particularly in a discussion forum.
Ah, do tell us about the practicalities of realising Shannon-Nyquist; relate this to tap length and the corresponding correlation with the perceptions of our hearing.

Quite happy to hear Purite’s learned views, (if he has any) and yours of course. We need, however, to be sure that your and his “evidence based opinion” is based on clear understanding. I’ve invited him to clear this up and demonstrate the degree, or limit, of his understanding but thus far no response.

Do tell us more about your evolution theorem and please list all the measurements which you appear to consider sufficient for your purposes.
 
I've owned an M Scaler no less than three times. Strictly speaking, I had a Blu 2, and then two M Scalers. Yes, the definition of insanity.

Short version

To cut a long story short, I think the M Scaler is a bit of a con. It does what it says it does, but it just doesn't sound very good. It makes a noticeable and quite significant difference, and most people seem to equate "difference" with "improvement". To my ears, with multiple Chord DACs, I found the M Scaler made the sound more detailed, but resulted in a sound that is lean and tonally bleached. The Chord DACs without the M Scaler sounded warmer, fuller and richer. The M Scaler produces the illusion of more detail and more dynamics but at a significant cost to musicality and natural sound.

These days, any powerful PC can produce similar upscaling to the M Scaler at a fraction of the cost, and the results are very similar. Rob Watts has obviously tuned the M Scaler to sound a little different to other software like Roon or HQPlayer, but even this could probably be replicated by someone willing to spend a bit of time playing with filter settings and maybe a bit of DSP. Even so, in my view it would be a waste of time because the effects of massive upscaling are as I've described - an etched, bleached un-musical sound which bears no relationship to the original. There are no free lunches in audio, particularly digital, and you cannot apply massive processing to a signal without there being a cost somewhere else.

Long version

I bought a Chord Dave a few years ago at a store after hearing it at a dem at a shop, alongside the top Audio Research DAC. The DAVE was played with the Blu 2, but at the time I didn't really think too much about its effect. The Audio Research DAC sounded as I expected - rich midrange, full sound. Not quite my cup of tea, but very good in a conventional way. The DAVE however sounded like nothing I'd ever heard. The sound stretched to the outer walls and beyond. The detail presented was extraordinary. It was like watching an MRI image of an orchestra, the level of detail was forensic to the extreme. It was an unfamiliar system and I can never really judge anything properly in a system I am not familiar with. But what I heard was something so extreme and so different that I thought that Rob Watts must really be onto something with his approach, and I ordered a DAVE. What I didn't realise was that I was mostly hearing the effects of upscaling from the Blu 2, which was producing that unexpected sound.

When I got the DAVE, I liked it. It sounded very good. At home, it didn't sound quite as radically different as I had expected based on the dem, but I was happy with it. And, as happens with these things, after reading up on it, I liked it so much I ordered the Blu 2 to go with it. (The M Scaler had not yet been released.) The Blu 2 arrived, I connected it, never really compared it with the "bare" DAVE, and just carried in listening to it. After some months I became vaguely dissatisfied with the DAVE/Blu 2. It was sounding tonally thin, lean, a little brighter than I remembered, and not very engaging. I didn't associate the Blu 2 with this sound (I naturally assumed it was an improvement, having drunk the Chord Kool Aid). After a year I sold both the DAVE and the Blu 2.

I tried a few other different DACs, but wasn't quite satisfied, and still believed there was something to the Chord approach that was fundamentally correct. I had read that the Hugo TT2 was fuller and more dynamic than the DAVE, but not as detailed. That sounded like what I wanted, so I ordered one, along with an M Scaler, since I still believed that upscaling would be an improvement. I quite liked the TT2 and did think it was an improvement over the DAVE for my preferences - it was smoother, fuller, tonally richer, and more dynamic, without quite the level of forensic detail. This time I did compare the different levels of upscaling, including comparing full upscaling to bypass mode (ie no upscaling). This time I could clearly hear that upscaling sounded brighter, more detailed, but lacked harmonic richness. Bypass sounded warmer and more natural. But did I prefer it? I didn't know. I couldn't reconcile the idea of having the M Scaler and not using it. I can't recall the thought process at the time, but after a few months I sold both, and moved on to something else.

Later still (all of this occurred over a period of about 4 years), I decided I still was interested in hearing the Chord sound, so bought a Qutest. It was good, if a little grainy and obviously a lesser DAC than the TT2. And again, I couldn't resist, I had to hear what an M Scaler would do to it, so I bought yet another one. I repeated the experiment with the TT2 and over time, I came to feel that the changes which the M Scaler made - which are clearly noticeable and not to be doubted - were definitely for the worse. I loaned both units to a friend whose ears I trusted, he did the same comparison without bias (and with little knowledge of the Chord DACs or upsampler) and came to the same conclusion much more quickly.

So after some years of listening to all of the Chord DACs with multiple M Scalers, I had come to the conclusion that upscaling just didn't produce the benefits claimed. There was some improvement in detail at the expense of a leaner, etched and bleached sound, but it was unnatural, and lost some of the warmth and richness of the original.

I sold the Qutest and M Scaler and have finally regurgitated all of the Chord Kool Aid, and will never go back there. I have moved on to other DACs and am very happy with what I currently have. And those who think that all DACs sound the same or that upscaling is not audible must either have an agenda of their own or be deaf.

It took me years, multiple DACs, endless listening comparisons and a ridiculous amount of money to figure out what the OP has realised very quickly. So my recommendation is: trust your ears, don't believe the hype and sell the M Scaler while there is a market for it.
 
It’s a shame really. My gut feeling is that Keith is nice person with great room correction knowledge. He has a viewpoint on digital audio in particular which he can’t allow others to differ with or at least feels the need to educate. We all need a little “live and let live” in our make up to help everyone chill.
I am in agreement with Suffolk Tony. Similarly like few people here, I noticed the thread crapping and surely it's getting tired but I am not bothered at all. I just ignore and didn't respond since I've been seeing this style (makes no difference, zero difference as measurements don't show etc) since 5 or 10 years ago?

Everyone is free or entitled to post anything on the forum and I respect that. I may disagree with certain posts and may be inclined to respond but if it gets repeated 100 or 1000 times, best to leave it as is. I would recommend folks to just ignore even though there's a disagreement in opinion or experience.
 
OP here.

I hear what people are saying about speakers making a difference. I have B&W CM10 S2 speakers, which I am hoping to upgrade to B&W 804 D3, or some other brand at around that price point (£7k new). But my comments about not being convinced by the merits of the Mscaler apply equally to my experiences listening via my Focal Utopia headphones. I can hear a small difference between the Mscaler/Dave and the bare Dave - but am not convinced that I prefer the sound with the Mscaler in play. So maybe my findings are similar to RossB. The Mscaler does make the Dave sound a little bit smoother (more analogue?), but I feel the sound also loses something, compared to the bare Dave.

If I sell the Mscaler now I can get most of my money back and will probably use the funds to upgrade my speakers. I would hope to hear a definte improvement going from B&W CM10 S2 to B&W 804 D3 (or something else at the £7k-£8k level). So I feel that would probably be a better use for my funds.

I have thought about adding an Innuos Phoenix to my Zen server - that may be a future purchase.

And of course I could always buy another Mscaler at a later date if I wanted to (as per RossB!!).

Incidentally, I had a TT2 before I bought the Dave. I do prefer the greater resolution of the Dave, but the TT2 was pretty good. Just not so sure about the Mscaler.....
 
I've owned an M Scaler no less than three times. Strictly speaking, I had a Blu 2, and then two M Scalers. Yes, the definition of insanity.

Short version

To cut a long story short, I think the M Scaler is a bit of a con. It does what it says it does, but it just doesn't sound very good. It makes a noticeable and quite significant difference, and most people seem to equate "difference" with "improvement". To my ears, with multiple Chord DACs, I found the M Scaler made the sound more detailed, but resulted in a sound that is lean and tonally bleached. The Chord DACs without the M Scaler sounded warmer, fuller and richer. The M Scaler produces the illusion of more detail and more dynamics but at a significant cost to musicality and natural sound.

These days, any powerful PC can produce similar upscaling to the M Scaler at a fraction of the cost, and the results are very similar. Rob Watts has obviously tuned the M Scaler to sound a little different to other software like Roon or HQPlayer, but even this could probably be replicated by someone willing to spend a bit of time playing with filter settings and maybe a bit of DSP. Even so, in my view it would be a waste of time because the effects of massive upscaling are as I've described - an etched, bleached un-musical sound which bears no relationship to the original. There are no free lunches in audio, particularly digital, and you cannot apply massive processing to a signal without there being a cost somewhere else.

Long version

I bought a Chord Dave a few years ago at a store after hearing it at a dem at a shop, alongside the top Audio Research DAC. The DAVE was played with the Blu 2, but at the time I didn't really think too much about its effect. The Audio Research DAC sounded as I expected - rich midrange, full sound. Not quite my cup of tea, but very good in a conventional way. The DAVE however sounded like nothing I'd ever heard. The sound stretched to the outer walls and beyond. The detail presented was extraordinary. It was like watching an MRI image of an orchestra, the level of detail was forensic to the extreme. It was an unfamiliar system and I can never really judge anything properly in a system I am not familiar with. But what I heard was something so extreme and so different that I thought that Rob Watts must really be onto something with his approach, and I ordered a DAVE. What I didn't realise was that I was mostly hearing the effects of upscaling from the Blu 2, which was producing that unexpected sound.

When I got the DAVE, I liked it. It sounded very good. At home, it didn't sound quite as radically different as I had expected based on the dem, but I was happy with it. And, as happens with these things, after reading up on it, I liked it so much I ordered the Blu 2 to go with it. (The M Scaler had not yet been released.) The Blu 2 arrived, I connected it, never really compared it with the "bare" DAVE, and just carried in listening to it. After some months I became vaguely dissatisfied with the DAVE/Blu 2. It was sounding tonally thin, lean, a little brighter than I remembered, and not very engaging. I didn't associate the Blu 2 with this sound (I naturally assumed it was an improvement, having drunk the Chord Kool Aid). After a year I sold both the DAVE and the Blu 2.

I tried a few other different DACs, but wasn't quite satisfied, and still believed there was something to the Chord approach that was fundamentally correct. I had read that the Hugo TT2 was fuller and more dynamic than the DAVE, but not as detailed. That sounded like what I wanted, so I ordered one, along with an M Scaler, since I still believed that upscaling would be an improvement. I quite liked the TT2 and did think it was an improvement over the DAVE for my preferences - it was smoother, fuller, tonally richer, and more dynamic, without quite the level of forensic detail. This time I did compare the different levels of upscaling, including comparing full upscaling to bypass mode (ie no upscaling). This time I could clearly hear that upscaling sounded brighter, more detailed, but lacked harmonic richness. Bypass sounded warmer and more natural. But did I prefer it? I didn't know. I couldn't reconcile the idea of having the M Scaler and not using it. I can't recall the thought process at the time, but after a few months I sold both, and moved on to something else.

Later still (all of this occurred over a period of about 4 years), I decided I still was interested in hearing the Chord sound, so bought a Qutest. It was good, if a little grainy and obviously a lesser DAC than the TT2. And again, I couldn't resist, I had to hear what an M Scaler would do to it, so I bought yet another one. I repeated the experiment with the TT2 and over time, I came to feel that the changes which the M Scaler made - which are clearly noticeable and not to be doubted - were definitely for the worse. I loaned both units to a friend whose ears I trusted, he did the same comparison without bias (and with little knowledge of the Chord DACs or upsampler) and came to the same conclusion much more quickly.

So after some years of listening to all of the Chord DACs with multiple M Scalers, I had come to the conclusion that upscaling just didn't produce the benefits claimed. There was some improvement in detail at the expense of a leaner, etched and bleached sound, but it was unnatural, and lost some of the warmth and richness of the original.

I sold the Qutest and M Scaler and have finally regurgitated all of the Chord Kool Aid, and will never go back there. I have moved on to other DACs and am very happy with what I currently have. And those who think that all DACs sound the same or that upscaling is not audible must either have an agenda of their own or be deaf.

It took me years, multiple DACs, endless listening comparisons and a ridiculous amount of money to figure out what the OP has realised very quickly. So my recommendation is: trust your ears, don't believe the hype and sell the M Scaler while there is a market for it.
Thanks for posting your detailed findings. Can I ask what speakers you were using and whether you think that affected your conclusions.

I sometimes wonder if too much detail can be a distraction rather than an aid. I once tried a pair of speakers which were very detailed sounding, but in the end I came to the conclusion that detail without a natural quality was just hifi for the sake of itself and not for the benefit of the music. An improvement in the presentation of transients is very tempting as long as that isn’t achieved by an artificiallly enhanced detail.

I have recently changed to highly revealing, but at the same time natural (phew!), sounding speakers and am finding that I now marginally prefer the “orange” filter rather than the incisive filter on my Qutest. I have been pondering what an m scaler and/or TT2 might bring to the music. Perhaps there is good detail and distracting detail, and which is which is different for us all. I suppose that the only way to find out is to try at leisure but that is tricky, especially at the moment.
 
Can I ask what speakers you were using and whether you think that affected your conclusions.

I used a number of different speakers over the period, mostly BBC type designs such as the Harbeth M30.1 and M30.2, Graham LS5/9, LS6 and LS3/5. I doubt that affected my conclusions.
 
To cut a long story short, I think the M Scaler is a bit of a con. It does what it says it does, but it just doesn't sound very good. It makes a noticeable and quite significant difference, and most people seem to equate "difference" with "improvement". To my ears, with multiple Chord DACs, I found the M Scaler made the sound more detailed, but resulted in a sound that is lean and tonally bleached. The Chord DACs without the M Scaler sounded warmer, fuller and richer. The M Scaler produces the illusion of more detail and more dynamics but at a significant cost to musicality and natural sound.
I respected your opinion, up until the point where you decided, because you don't like what the MScaler does, that it's somehow a con. The idea that "Most people seem to equate 'difference" with "improvement" somehow relates to the sort of folk in the market for an MScaler is arrogant, insulting nonsense. My experience is completely the opposite of yours and, trust me, it takes rather a lot of listening over many hours to convince me a bit of kit is genuinely an improvement and worth the considerable (to me) extra outlay. You don't like it, lots of us do, and you're no better at deciding how good something sounds than anyone else.
 
OP here.

I hear what people are saying about speakers making a difference. I have B&W CM10 S2 speakers, which I am hoping to upgrade to B&W 804 D3, or some other brand at around that price point (£7k new). But my comments about not being convinced by the merits of the Mscaler apply equally to my experiences listening via my Focal Utopia headphones. I can hear a small difference between the Mscaler/Dave and the bare Dave - but am not convinced that I prefer the sound with the Mscaler in play. So maybe my findings are similar to RossB. The Mscaler does make the Dave sound a little bit smoother (more analogue?), but I feel the sound also loses something, compared to the bare Dave.

If I sell the Mscaler now I can get most of my money back and will probably use the funds to upgrade my speakers. I would hope to hear a definte improvement going from B&W CM10 S2 to B&W 804 D3 (or something else at the £7k-£8k level). So I feel that would probably be a better use for my funds.

I have thought about adding an Innuos Phoenix to my Zen server - that may be a future purchase.

And of course I could always buy another Mscaler at a later date if I wanted to (as per RossB!!).

Incidentally, I had a TT2 before I bought the Dave. I do prefer the greater resolution of the Dave, but the TT2 was pretty good. Just not so sure about the Mscaler.....
What sources do you have? If you are digital only it is definitely worth running your DAC direct into active speakers. I am a big fan of ATC so maybe look at their offerings.
 
@RossB A lot of folks with MScalar use special cables with ferrites due to the RF noise the unit produces. This might explain the different experiences. Did you ever go down that route?

(IMO though, you shouldn't have to...).
 
@RossB A lot of folks with MScalar use special cables with ferrites due to the RF noise the unit produces. This might explain the different experiences. Did you ever go down that route?

(IMO though, you shouldn't have to...).

Yes, I tried a few different cables, as well as ferrites, which made absolutely no difference.
 
To my ears, with multiple Chord DACs, I found the M Scaler made the sound more detailed, but resulted in a sound that is lean and tonally bleached. The Chord DACs without the M Scaler sounded warmer, fuller and richer. The M Scaler produces the illusion of more detail and more dynamics but at a significant cost to musicality and natural sound.
Thanks for sharing your detailed thoughts on M Scaler. It's interesting because it's more or less the opposite of my experience of M Scaler with TT2. I'm usually pretty good at describing differences but in the case of M Scaler I found it particularly difficult to put my finger on exactly how the sound changed, but I felt it became purer, more lifelike and it increased my sense of immersion in the music. I found the TT 2 on its own to be a touch sterile and brittle sounding, and simply less 'convincing', without M Scaler in the chain. It's fascinating how we all hear things differently.
 
Yes, I tried a few different cables, as well as ferrites, which made absolutely no difference.
That's something we can agree on. I did try different BNCs, and using ferrites, but if there was a difference, I couldn't hear it.
 
Blimey where does one start with the contradictory views on here ....it’s such a subjective area and aural memory is so poor.......an extended home demo is the only rational way forward.....why do I keep using ....dunno

Ray
 
Another decent, genuine thread crapped on by Purite Audio. It could have been a useful conversation between people who had some experience of the o/p’s kit
OP here.

I hear what people are saying about speakers making a difference. I have B&W CM10 S2 speakers, which I am hoping to upgrade to B&W 804 D3, or some other brand at around that price point (£7k new). But my comments about not being convinced by the merits of the Mscaler apply equally to my experiences listening via my Focal Utopia headphones. I can hear a small difference between the Mscaler/Dave and the bare Dave - but am not convinced that I prefer the sound with the Mscaler in play. So maybe my findings are similar to RossB. The Mscaler does make the Dave sound a little bit smoother (more analogue?), but I feel the sound also loses something, compared to the bare Dave.

If I sell the Mscaler now I can get most of my money back and will probably use the funds to upgrade my speakers. I would hope to hear a definte improvement going from B&W CM10 S2 to B&W 804 D3 (or something else at the £7k-£8k level). So I feel that would probably be a better use for my funds.

I have thought about adding an Innuos Phoenix to my Zen server - that may be a future purchase.

And of course I could always buy another Mscaler at a later date if I wanted to (as per RossB!!).

Incidentally, I had a TT2 before I bought the Dave. I do prefer the greater resolution of the Dave, but the TT2 was pretty good. Just not so sure about the Mscaler.....
Fwiw, even though I have a DAVE/MScaler I would definitely suggest you look at speakers first, preferably active. ATC SCM40As are within your budget, especially as you wouldn’t need an amp, and maybe other ATCs further up the range, depending on whether you go new or s/h. They have a magnificent, solid, coherent, convincing sound, with all sorts of music, and will give you a huge amount of pleasure and involvement. And they aren’t “hi-fi”.
 
Good to hear different impressions of what the m scaler does. It does seem, from those that have actually used it, that it does do something; contrary to the “opinions” of some who express their views based on limited knowledge of the technology behind the product and their belief system. The general consensus is that the changes it makes are for the better although the fact that some didn’t like it indicates the necessity of a decent trial in ones own system.
 


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