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Charleston church shooting

I think one should distinguish between organized "professionals" like terrorist groups or criminal gangs and individual nutters. Stringently restricting gun sales will never stop the former from obtaining weapons (think of the IRA, the Red Brigades, Al Qaeda, RAF, drug gangs, bank robbers, etc.), but it will stop a maniac who suddenly decides to exterminate his family, or to start shooting at people in a school, having obtained guns from shops or mail order.
 
:eek:
monkfish said:
In the UK the gov't are trying to brand "extremists" and "Conspiracy theorists" the same as "Terrorists", Cameron has openly stated this, with five private prisons to throw people into, and trials in secret to get them there, this is more terrifying than guns in the UK.
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More evidence of the way many countries are going under right-wing governments. It's scary!

In America, less guns=less shootings unless you are a nutter who thinks it's safer to arm anyone you think should be armed, FFS they wanted teachers to be armed after a school shooting, what next?, arm the pupils to protect them against renegade teachers?.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/nra-mass-shootings-south-carolina-church
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Sweet lamb of God :rolleyes:
 
PaulMB said:
I think one should distinguish between organized "professionals" like terrorist groups or criminal gangs and individual nutters. Stringently restricting gun sales will never stop the former from obtaining weapons (think of the IRA, the Red Brigades, Al Qaeda, RAF, drug gangs, bank robbers, etc.), but it will stop a maniac who suddenly decides to exterminate his family, or to start shooting at people in a school, having obtained guns from shops or mail order.
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There is nothing that will stop groups of nutters or single nutters obtaining weapons, to keep manufacturing and LEGALLY distributing guns on the streets, not to mention all the arms sold outside the US, which end up **** knows where after they have served their purpose, is the problem.

More guns = more killings, is that not the case here?, guns mail order is just one I can't get my head round at all, I can't think of one reason for it apart from making money which is the key to whole shebang isn't it.
 
monkfish said:
There is nothing that will stop groups of nutters or single nutters obtaining weapons, to keep manufacturing and LEGALLY distributing guns on the streets, not to mention all the arms sold outside the US, which end up **** knows where after they have served their purpose, is the problem.

More guns = more killings, is that not the case here?, guns mail order is just one I can't get my head round at all, I can't think of one reason for it apart from making money which is the key to whole shebang isn't it.
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Agree, of course. But the point I was trying to make is the casual aspect of acquiring guns. If they freely sold pistols at the hardware shop on the corner, at some point over the past 30 years, in a moment of boredom perhaps, I might have bought one. I might have fired it a couple of times at bottles, and then put it in a box in the garage. Years later, I discover my wife is having sex with vacuum cleaner salesman, drink myself into a mad rage, remember the gun in the garage and, etc. etc.
Instead, if I wanted a pistol I would have to go through weeks of police checks, filling out forms, going to a range to learn how to use it, so I'll never do it.
Also, a lot of these killers are gun-fetishists, they have many weapons, acquired and hoarded for years. I think the ease of acquisition makes a big difference.
 
monkfish said:
There is nothing that will stop groups of nutters or single nutters obtaining weapons...
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Well, in the UK, there is. If particular types of firearm cannot be legally bought or owned, then the random guy who goes off on one does not have the means to slaughter dozens. Very few people know how or where to buy on the black market.
 
Cav said:
Well, in the UK, there is. If particular types of firearm cannot be legally bought or owned, then the random guy who goes off on one does not have the means to slaughter dozens. Very few people know how or where to buy on the black market.
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Even if they knew where it is exceptionally unlikely that the kind of underachieving loser who tends to be drawn to such behaviour would be able to afford black-market rates. As I understand it even simple hand-guns go for £thousands, let alone the semi-automatic assault weapons designed for mass killing, and that's the easy bit! Now try buying some ammunition for it! In the UK guns tend to be in the domain of drug-funded gangs, i.e. very successful high earners with huge piles of cash to quietly dispose of. Some random racist/religious nutter getting angry reading daft internet blogs or watching YouTube doesn't stand a chance.
 
PaulMB said:
Agree, of course. But the point I was trying to make is the casual aspect of acquiring guns. If they freely sold pistols at the hardware shop on the corner, at some point over the past 30 years, in a moment of boredom perhaps, I might have bought one. I might have fired it a couple of times at bottles, and then put it in a box in the garage. Years later, I discover my wife is having sex with vacuum cleaner salesman, drink myself into a mad rage, remember the gun in the garage and, etc. etc.
Instead, if I wanted a pistol I would have to go through weeks of police checks, filling out forms, going to a range to learn how to use it, so I'll never do it.
Also, a lot of these killers are gun-fetishists, they have many weapons, acquired and hoarded for years. I think the ease of acquisition makes a big difference.
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Thanks for clarifying your point, which is reasoned and sensible, my opinion on the other hand is that less guns available is the best thing, in the UK all guns are now taboo I think, replicas, air guns etc. and the police don't routinely carry guns, I think this is better than everyone being able to bear arms but Americans have that right and there are guns everywhere, everyone routinely sees them and they have become used to this situation and think it normal.
 
Why do the US sell guns so readily if this sort of thing has proven to be, over the years, commonplace.
 
sean99 said:
There are about 10,000 gun homicides per year in the US. That's 3 September 11 attacks every year.
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This is the death toll that matters. IMO.

The Oklahoma bombing killed 170 and injured about 500. Guns kill (in homicides alone) about 10,000 a year.
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Oklahoma was terrorism, the Charleston attack was terrorism. You are confusing terrorism with homicide.

ISTM that every time there is a mass murder in the US, politicians go head to head with gun control shouting, where gun control really isn't the causal factor but the motivation of the murderer is. And every year 10000 people are killed in gun crimes and there is little shouting, but gun control would actually make a significant difference. In fact simply enforcing existing regulation and targeting criminals with guns would save lots of lives, but there's little political mileage in reducing the death toll amongst low level drug dealers.

In the UK, of course, guns are strictly controlled, to the point that an Act of Parliament was required to allow the Olympics. But you can have a shot gun easily enough. If you want a terror weapon to use in church, that's a good choice. Especially as nobody will be firing back. The critical factor in this incident isn't weaponry, or access to weaponry.

Paul
 
Paul R said:
In the UK, of course, guns are strictly controlled, to the point that an Act of Parliament was required to allow the Olympics. But you can have a shot gun easily enough. If you want a terror weapon to use in church, that's a good choice. Especially as nobody will be firing back. The critical factor in this incident isn't weaponry, or access to weaponry.

Paul
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There are still substantial controls on shotguns. Just going through the 5 year renewal process and it's a couple of interviews, a home visit, a doctor's reference plus signed by a reputable referee.

If you're going to cause a problem with a shotgun you'd need a pair and a loader or you'd be taken down at the first reload.

Firearm Certificates and ownership are even more hassle so most of us who have good reason to own one have given them up ages ago.
 
^^ what he said plus;
I expect that within the UK most hand guns in circulating a those being smuggled into the country as a result of kit going astray in conflict areas of Europe or arms that are re-purposed by criminal / underground armours within the UK. Some but not all may be discovered upon attempted import to the UK while others can only be discovered and tracked in hindsight by being recorded upon various security and police operated forensic databases within UK or across Europe after being recovered at a crime.

The US being larger, with more points of entry and gun lobbies may find the UK / Europe approach harder to emulate at a federal level if indeed this is what the people wished.
 
American politics never cease to amaze and horrify me! Surely there can't be anywhere near a majority of Americans that are so stupid as to want any nutter to be able to buy a gun from the local shops? Have a referendum on banning them!
 
sean99 said:
The number of households owning guns is declining, but the households who do own guns are owning larger and larger stockpiles of weapons.

This video is pretty funny (and filmed in Boston, my part of America).

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Excellent, thanks :)

I am with 'Bowling for Columbine'....the US are full of fear.

The 'pursuit of happiness' inherently means that you could have something that someone could find being in the way of his or her 'happiness'....
 
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