CD Players, worth spending over £2,000?

[sq225917]

One has to consider the historical perspective. Originally the dacs were poor, data handling modest and transfer protocols limited in choice and quality. It made sense to build high quality mechs.

Once volume and popularity increased and product churn took over as a key dales driver it makes sense to lower the cost of the mech and build them last only 5 years or so.

Then once the external dac became deriguer, async protocols arrived and the dac was capable of fixing almost any source shortcoming the balance changes yet again.

If I was buying a cd transport I'd want one cheap enough to bin off after a couple of years or built well enough to fix forever. On SQ alone a one box cd player makes no financial sense these days unless you favour a specific brands house sound.

 

[leroyd]

Apologies if I'm repeating what has been said without reading the 8 preceding pages, but it seems to me that ripping to hard/SS drive is greatly preferable to any expensive CD player. With poor condition discs I have heard my computer scanning parts of the disc several times in order to get a 100% accurate rip. The transport itself is just a means of getting access to the data, and error correction can be more thorough when ripping since there is not a time limit. Software can check against online data to confirm that the rip is faultless.

Add to that the convenience of being able to fit your entire CD collection at maximum quality in your pocket and not even know it is there, and I really struggle to understand the desire for expensive standalone CD players. How can they compete with Mac and DAC?

That said, I'm a vinyl user, so it's specks and planks. ;-)

Agree. An Innuos Zen purchased a couple of months back and no longer require a CD player. Everything is controlled from my phone as I relax on the couch. My CD collection is on the Zen hard drive and I look forward to ripping my brothers collection in the new year.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

Exactly. If buying a CD player today, especially an expensive one, do your due diligence.

Check that it employs a widely-used reliable modern mechanism. One which is not likely to fail early, but if it does will give you options for a complete replacement and/or parts for as long as possible into the future.

To me that's much more important than any idea of value in some high-end low-volume boutique mechanism. It's what I did when buying a CD player in this price range, in early 2018. I don't yet know if I chose well but do still I think I have reduced my risk.

Indeed, pretty much what I’d posted earlier on.

 

[DimitryZ]

The idea of buying an expensive cd player with transport viewed as "replaceable" in the future is a bad one.

Most players are not designed for easy service. After replacing the transport in the MF KWSACD, I can attest it is a PITA job.

And that didn't include adjusting the pathetic garage made add-on that they created to make the cheesy transport "feel" smooth. I threw that away during the first replacement.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

The idea of buying an expensive cd player with transport viewed as "replaceable" in the future is a bad one.

Most players are not designed for easy service. After replacing the transport in the MF KWSACD, I can attest it is a PITA job.

And that didn't include adjusting the pathetic garage made add-on that they created to make the cheesy transport "feel" smooth. I threw that away during the first replacement.

I don’t find it difficult, I do it routinely, and I’d rather buy one with a replaceable mech than non replaceable. A replacement CD mech is very inexpensive compared to a decent turntable cartridge, and will run for a lot more hours.

 

[JezmondTutu]

I think the best disc player for anything short of crazy money is the last OPPO - udp...now discontinued. Plays everything, including SACD and DVD and has awesome connectivity, including home theater. Full external DAC function as well. Great best SABRE pro DAC implementation. MQA enabled for those who care.

I think you can definitely buy a heavier, more expensive and more prestigious player. I am really sceptical it would be noticeably better.

I went through all the standard digital combos through the 90s and early noughts. Last one before the OPPO was MF KW SACD. It was excellent...except for the transport, which was a cheap Phillips DVD plastic job, that was both unreliable and unavailable. After changing in the third one, I was tired....

OPPO has been bulletproof.

UDP203 or 205? I’ve a 203 and it’s a lovely thing, didn’t know about MQA - how would you work that? I have a Bluesound Node 2i mind you and am very happy with that. Both used for digital output into my dac.

 

[mercalia]

I don’t find it difficult, I do it routinely, and I’d rather buy one with a replaceable mech than non replaceable. A replacement CD mech is very in expensive compared to a decent turntable cartridge, and will run for a lot more hours.

same for my Audiolab 8200cdq. The only thing I have to do with the replacment mechanism is to unsolder a joint that I think protects from static. Otherwise it is just unplug and plug in some cables. The thing to to get the whole mechanism not just a laser assembly. Now that maybe a different. matter. A device that isnt easy to dismantle is one to avoid I think? Repairing motherboards another matter

 

[Mole Man]

One has to consider the historical perspective. Originally the dacs were poor, data handling modest and transfer protocols limited in choice and quality. It made sense to build high quality mechs.

Once volume and popularity increased and product churn took over as a key dales driver it makes sense to lower the cost of the mech and build them last only 5 years or so.

Then once the external dac became deriguer, async protocols arrived and the dac was capable of fixing almost any source shortcoming the balance changes yet again.

If I was buying a cd transport I'd want one cheap enough to bin off after a couple of years or built well enough to fix forever. On SQ alone a one box cd player makes no financial sense these days unless you favour a specific brands house sound.

What about the environmental considerations of throwing away/recycling a cheaply made CD transport every couple of years or so? I’m no hair shirt environmentalist but I really don’t like that idea. One of the best things about this forum and hobby is surely the long service that we are able to coax out of our system components - thus keeping them out of landfill.

 

[Mr Pig]

Most players are not designed for easy service. After replacing the transport in the MF KWSACD, I can attest it is a PITA job.

I guess that depends. I've replaced the Philips mech on a couple of players and it was easy enough. A Meccano job as I would say, just nuts and bolts. If you take the top off a Rega player the mech is just hanging there off it, it couldn't be simpler.

I like the idea of using a good DAC and a cheap transport. Makes sense to me, I've just not been able to get it work. I bought the Rega DAC with that intention but nothing I tried sounded as good feeding it as the Saturn-R. I wish it had!

 

[linnfomaniac83]

What about the environmental considerations of throwing away/recycling a cheaply made CD transport every couple of years or so? I’m no hair shirt environmentalist but I really don’t like that idea. One of the best things about this forum and hobby is surely the long service that we are able to coax out of our system components - thus keeping them out of landfill.

If it’s just the optical block, it’s really not that big a deal, they’re small. Your food weekly packaging is probably worse... a dead stylus will create plastic waste and the only reason they tend to last longer is that they’re usually used less than a CD laser, in terms of playing hours, a CD laser should last much longer. If it doesn’t, it’s a poor show.

 

[DimitryZ]

UDP203 or 205? I’ve a 203 and it’s a lovely thing, didn’t know about MQA - how would you work that? I have a Bluesound Node 2i mind you and am very happy with that. Both used for digital output into my dac.

205.

OPPO provided MQA player and DAC firmware after the player has been discontinued.

 

[DimitryZ]

As for desirebility of open box user maintenance of expensive audio equipment, I beg to differ.

If you enjoy taking your expensive equipment partially apart and swapping out parts, that's your choice.

However, don't assume this is "normal" usage or that majority of audiophiles enjoy spending their hobby time with disassembled equipment.

It's the same with expensive cars - most owners enjoy the driving part, not the oil/spark plugs/engine change experience.

 

[DimitryZ]

If it’s just the optical block, it’s really not that big a deal, they’re small. Your food weekly packaging is probably worse... a dead stylus will create plastic waste and the only reason they tend to last longer is that they’re usually used less than a CD laser, in terms of playing hours, a CD laser should last much longer. If it doesn’t, it’s a poor show.

It's not "optical block", those are not really domestically replaceable on most drive units. Failure is often in the plastic mechanics

The drive unit is essentially a DVD-Rom without the enclosure. And if it's not available new, it has to be harvested from an older/used commercial DVD player, with most of it discarded.

That's a lot of waste. Plus it's just not really enjoyable work for 90% of us. It's like running a personal electronic salvage yard.

In the KW SACD, transports would last s couple of years. Some of the salvaged ones worked, some didn't. The idiocy of a $5k CDp with this "feature" eventually got to me.

 

[James]

On SQ alone a one box cd player makes no financial sense these days unless you favour a specific brands house sound.

Densen makes pretty good-sounding CD players, but one of the reasons I went for the B-440XS is that its DAC can be deployed for other digital sources, such as my Node 2i streamer. As a one-box solution to play silver discs, it takes up less space than a separate transport and DAC.

 

[JezmondTutu]

205.

OPPO provided MQA player and DAC firmware after the player has been discontinued.

So only on the 205?

 

[Mr Pig]

As for desirability of open box user maintenance of expensive audio equipment, I beg to differ.

You did not mention desirability. You said it was "not easy", a PITA". If you don't want to do it that's fine but for someone who knows which end of a screwdriver to hold it's not especially difficult.

 

[evan]

For what it’s worth, my Naim CDX2 (which sold for £4K new and I bought second hand for £1k) had problems with skipping tracks. I spoke to a few of the usual non-Naim repairers and was told that the only way to fix it was to send it to Naim via a dealer at a cost of £350 or thereabouts. Apparently other attempts to fix it with non-Naim gear had never proved successful. From memory the entire transport needed to be replaced (though I could be wrong).

It was annoying. I had to spend £350 for something that would provide no improvement in sound quality.

Then when I later sold the CDX2 I received zero premium for the fact that it had a brand new transport. Contrast this to a newly serviced power amp in which the cost of the service usually adds to the resale value, so is never 100% wasted.

To top it all off, my replacement Cambridge Audio CXC (CD transport) + RME ADI-2 DAC absolutely *destroyed* the CDX2 in terms of sound quality and for zero extra cash. It was a revelation.

I still like CDs. I like their physicality and the fact that I’m more likely to play whole albums on CD then when streaming. I have 2,000 CDs on a wall at home. But unless a high end CD player performs some sort of irreplaceable magic to your ears, I can’t see how they can make sense when there are so many amazing DACs available. The risk of mechanical failure in a premium CD player alone creates a huge barrier to me.

One last point: whenever I see older Naim CD players for sale I wonder how long it will be until parts start degrading and require replacement. I can’t recall ever seeing the repair history of a CD player included in a classified listing, unlike older amps and speakers. So it seems to me that buying old premium CD players is a lottery.

Or maybe I was just unlucky.

 

[Mr Pig]

Contrast this to a newly serviced power amp in which the cost of the service usually adds to the resale value...

Naa, that's not true. A newly serviced Naim Nait for instance? Won't sell for any more than an untouched one. May even be less.

I can’t recall ever seeing the repair history of a CD player included in a classified listing, unlike older amps and speakers. So it seems to me that buying old premium CD players is a lottery.

I think you're just making stuff up. You're no more or less likely to see a service history for a pair of speakers or amp as you are for a CD player and buying any old equipment is a lottery. Buy a thirty year old car, you're going to be fixing it. Buy an old house, you're gonna be fixing it. Naim didn't sell these things with a forty year warranty.

 

[linnfomaniac83]

It's not "optical block", those are not really domestically replaceable on most drive units. Failure is often in the plastic mechanics

The drive unit is essentially a DVD-Rom without the enclosure. And if it's not available new, it has to be harvested from an older/used commercial DVD player, with most of it discarded.

That's a lot of waste. Plus it's just not really enjoyable work for 90% of us. It's like running a personal electronic salvage yard.

In the KW SACD, transports would last s couple of years. Some of the salvaged ones worked, some didn't. The idiocy of a $5k CDp with this "feature" eventually got to me.

Ah, it’s an SACD unit with a DVD ROM drive, those do seem to be a little more flakey and I don’t think I’d part with a significant sum of money for one.

 

[booja30]

I think you're just making stuff up. You're no more or less likely to see a service history for a pair of speakers or amp as you are for a CD player and buying any old equipment is a lottery. Buy a thirty year old car, you're going to be fixing it. Buy an old house, you're gonna be fixing it. Naim didn't sell these things with a forty year warranty.

I've had service invoices included with several items I've purchased (Naim NAT02, HiCap, NAP140, Sansui tuner, Quad 306). At the time that I bought these I didn't know that it was practical to do the work myself. So it did matter to me as a buyer at the time.

Also, in PFM classifieds when I see older gear for sale (especially Naim amps), I do regularly see people asking in the threads if the item has been serviced. So it is important to some people, especially with Naim it seems. Probably because so many people thought it was important to leave it on all the time.

It's no longer that important to me because I know how to do it myself and have taken on bigger jobs (e.g. Sansui AU-717). In fact I kind of lean the other direction now -- I'd rather buy something in original condition that's not working well and overhaul it myself then find out I bought something that was partially refreshed by a tech or DIYer (with unknown qualifications).