advertisement


Beethoven at the Proms

I've only seen one Prom so far this year, and that was from a Box on the 2nd floor at the Albert Hall, rather than via TV. For me the high spot was seeing Katie Derham in high heels. On the TV I suspect you only saw the top half. As for the performance it was Handel's water music and fireworks music played on contemporary instruments and the valveless pseudo French Horns on the left of the orchestra were dreadfully out of tune compared to the strings. The conductor was running the show like a freight train that couldn't be stopped.

bbclinky
The last thing to expect from the proms is a really great performance of anything. Its more about spreading the classical vibe to the masses, isn't it?
 
cliffpatte said:
The last thing to expect from the proms is a really great performance of anything. Its more about spreading the classical vibe to the masses, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Well, up to a point Lord Copper. In the fifties and sixties conductors such as Boult and Sargent managed to do both.There were less international visiting orchestras and conductors then compared with today which was both good and bad.
 
Coincidentally, I've just been listening to a repeat on Radio Three of the last-mentioned Prom, the Handel on period instruments. Out of tune? I've heard better music coming off the top of the garden wall in the early hours. Why insist on using these old instruments, now we have better ones? I'm sure Handel would prefer the way his works sound now. I once heard someone play Chopin on an actual piano Chopin had played himself. It was dreadful, with hardly any sustain. Let's consign all these antique instruments to a museum, where they belong. Some of their names are a delight, but it's a shame the same can't be said for how they sound. Isn't it odd, by the way, that we're still using violins, violas and 'cellos made in the 1700s, and nothing now made can surpass the really good old ones? I wonder why that is.
 
ClaraBannister said:
Isn't it odd, by the way, that we're still using violins, violas and 'cellos made in the 1700s, and nothing now made can surpass the really good old ones? I wonder why that is.
Click to expand...

Did you hear the programme on John Amis the other week? He related how he once set up a test (on television I think) with 4 violins, a Strad, a Guarnerius, something 100 rears old and French and a modern instrument only a year old, all being played behind a screen.
The panel of eminent musicians (including the owner of the Strad) couldn`t reliably tell which was which.
 
Barrymagrec said:
Did you hear the programme on John Amis the other week? He related how he once set up a test (on television I think) with 4 violins, a Strad, a Guarnerius, something 100 rears old and French and a modern instrument only a year old, all being played behind a screen.
The panel of eminent musicians (including the owner of the Strad) couldn`t reliably tell which was which.
Click to expand...

Blind hi fi test standard worked there as well then! It seems we are not alone.
 
cliffpatte said:
The last thing to expect from the proms is a really great performance of anything. Its more about spreading the classical vibe to the masses, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Several of the greatest performances I've seen of anything anywhere have been at the proms (but I have probably been to >700 proms and stood through a lot of dross): Abaddo and Bernstein's Mahler, Wand's Bruckner on several occasions spring immediately to mind. The Walkure with Terfel, Domingo and Maier wasn't half bad either.

I was in the hall for the 6th and 5th. Both were unreconstructedly old-school in style. I thought this worked really well for the 6th and the performance was worthy of mention in the same breadth as some of the greats. The 5th lacked the punch and power of a really fine performance. I'm sure this is mainly Barenboim's interpretation, not a failing of the orchestra. They are capable of punching when he asks them to.
 
Barrymagrec said:
Did you hear the programme on John Amis the other week? He related how he once set up a test (on television I think) with 4 violins, a Strad, a Guarnerius, something 100 rears old and French and a modern instrument only a year old, all being played behind a screen.
The panel of eminent musicians (including the owner of the Strad) couldn`t reliably tell which was which.
Click to expand...

Yes, in a blind test all competent violins sound the same.
 
ClaraBannister said:
Coincidentally, I've just been listening to a repeat on Radio Three of the last-mentioned Prom, the Handel on period instruments. Out of tune? I've heard better music coming off the top of the garden wall in the early hours. Why insist on using these old instruments, now we have better ones? I'm sure Handel would prefer the way his works sound now. I once heard someone play Chopin on an actual piano Chopin had played himself. It was dreadful, with hardly any sustain. Let's consign all these antique instruments to a museum, where they belong. Some of their names are a delight, but it's a shame the same can't be said for how they sound. Isn't it odd, by the way, that we're still using violins, violas and 'cellos made in the 1700s, and nothing now made can surpass the really good old ones? I wonder why that is.
Click to expand...

It is nice to see that the "if Bach had only had a Wurlitzer Butterfly Baby Grand" school of thought is still alive and kicking somewhere.

The reason to use old instruments is that in skilled hands they make baroque music come alive in a wonderful way, in a way that modern instruments played in a modern way in large orchestras can't. It's not just the instruments, it's the way they are played, different phrasing, different pitch, smaller orchestras, etc. Of course, if the musicians aren't competent enough or are overwhelmed by the difficulty of playing these temperamental instruments, the results can be awful. There are gimmicks and hype and exaggeration in the period instrument movement but overall I find it has added to the appreciation of the baroque repertoire.

Now if you prefer Handel's oratorios performed by orchestras and choirs of hundreds, or Water Music performed in the old Raymond Leppard/Sir Neville Marriner way, that's fine. Lots of those recordings are still out there.
 
ClaraBannister said:
Coincidentally, I've just been listening to a repeat on Radio Three of the last-mentioned Prom, the Handel on period instruments. Out of tune? I've heard better music coming off the top of the garden wall in the early hours. Why insist on using these old instruments, now we have better ones? I'm sure Handel would prefer the way his works sound now. I once heard someone play Chopin on an actual piano Chopin had played himself. It was dreadful, with hardly any sustain. Let's consign all these antique instruments to a museum, where they belong. Some of their names are a delight, but it's a shame the same can't be said for how they sound. Isn't it odd, by the way, that we're still using violins, violas and 'cellos made in the 1700s, and nothing now made can surpass the really good old ones? I wonder why that is.
Click to expand...

Great post. Wasn’t it Previn who said something about these guys going to all that trouble just to be able to play out of tune?

I think there is a place for period instruments, but a smaller one than currently exists ;) Edit: (add) at best the performance can take on clarity of communication impossible with modern instruments. This can extend into the Romantic period even (Schumann’s orchestration starts to make sense for example).

Incidentally Sara and I attended a (late night) prom in the ‘80s where the period instrument orchestra played one piece so badly the audience didn’t applaud! This temporarily restored my faith in Proms audiences who usually cheer and bray for any mediocre offering.

At its best the proms can really deliver, usually if the band rises to the occasion. We always made sure we had tickets for the Oslo/Jansons concert up until the time he was poorly as they always put on a good show.
 
I've listened to many modern instrument performances that were out of tune. I think period instrument performances can be interesting and sometimes great, just like modern instrument performances.
 
I heard that this week and assumed a lot of tourists were in. You sporadically get it at the Edinburgh Festival if it's a popular programme.
 
ClaraBannister said:
As an aside, what does the team think about the current Proms trend of the audience applauding each movement of a symphony?
Click to expand...

It`s been going on for years. The first Prom I attended was (from memory, I have the programme somewhere) Malcom Sargent and the BBC SO doing the Beethoven 4th Piano concerto. Some people clapped after the first movement. Sargent turned round and glared at the audience with a look that must have turned some to stone. They didn`t do it again. This was about 1963.

To answer the question, I dissaprove, what was good enough for Flash is good enough for me.
 
ClaraBannister said:
As an aside, what does the team think about the current Proms trend of the audience applauding each movement of a symphony?
Click to expand...

I don't like it because it breaks the mood and any continuity there might be between movements. And also because I'm an old fart and I was brought up not clapping between movements.

Having said that, not clapping between movements is just a modern convention. In the 19th century people would clap (or throw things) between movements and sometimes during. Also chat with their neighbour, go for a drink, smoke etc. It is amusing that it is still OK to clap at the opera after the star soprano belts out a good aria or during a ballet but clapping after a good first movement is frowned upon, usually by the same people. So the same Swan Lake or Rites of Spring played by the same orchestra will get applauded differently by the cognoscenti depending on whether they are listening to the full ballet version or the orchestral suite derived from it. Doesn't make that much sense.

Also what do you do when there is a quick succession of small pieces, say 2-3' each (same/different composer, same/different opus number)? Some people clap every piece, some clap only when there is a clear break in the programme, etc.
 
Bob McC said:
I'm just glad to still be awake.
Click to expand...

There's a woman comes to Edinburgh Festival concerts with a guide dog and always sits down the front with the Labrador asleep next to her isle seat. I think it was Mahler one night and I watched one of the percussionists walk over to a stand and pick up a huge pair of cymbals. I kept my eye on the dog and sure enough when the guy banged them the pooch jumped up bolt upright. I saw it coming but unfortunately the dog didn't.
 
Danny will be conducting the biggie tonight, appropriate for the opening if the Olympics. What better group of musicians is there to embody the spirit of that music and the Olympics?
 
Del monaco said:
I think Barenboim is a capable if rather dull conductor so I'm not surprised you find his Beethoven disappointing. He's not in the same league as Toscannini, Furtwangler or Kleiber and never will be. Hype is hype.
Del
Click to expand...
Caught some of the 9th on the radio the other day and didn't like it. He can do the business when the fancy takes him though - have you heard the recent recordings of the Bruckner 7 and the Liszt concertos with Boulez? Pretty stellar, although he isn't someone who's interested me much over the years for whatever reason.
 
Although I've not been to hear Barenboim conduct Beethoven, I have heard him conduct other work when he was in Chicago. He's currently director of two great opera companies in the world- Staatsoper Berlin and La Scala. He is a great Beethoven interpreter as a soloist and he has chosen to take on a mammoth task with all nine symphonies performed with a young, relatively inexperienced orchestra from the Middle East- who are not the European Youth Orchestra or the Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester. The performances they have produced together are creditable but they are different from the product that would have resulted from a tour with the BPO, CSO, Concertgebouw or the two above.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top