Ban on petrol and diesel cars from 2030

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

It has been said here, and in countless other places, before - electric cars are an insane idea on numerous counts.

Hydrogen-fuelled combustion engines or fuel cell electric cars are the way to go.

I presume you mean battery-electric cars are insane, not electric cars per se.

Problem with fuel cells is power delivery, AIUI. You still need some degree of battery storage for the high current demand bits when the fuel cell can't keep up.

Problem with hydrogen is storage. Either cryogenic (requires plant) or, more likely, metal hydride adsorbtion (heavy/bulky), plus the problems of porosity (H2 is a very small molecule) and the embrittlement of most metals that spend much time in contact with Hydrogen gas.

But apart from that, yes, you're right. Obvs.

 

[gingermrkettle]

And just to carry this on:
a) we have friends who work with Graeme Cooper who can confirm that he is not an idiot.
b) current hydrogen production uses oil in a lot of cases and has a much higher round trip loss than battery charging.

 

[matt j]

It was Graeme Cooper at National Grid who has been regularly pointing out that there is capacity and will be. Look up his twitter feed, there are links to stuff like actual facts about the network.

And you, Vinny, are the only person I have seen vocally going for fuel cell over battery for cars (as opposed to HGVs etc.). Why when most houses can have the ability to charge a car would you go back to a fuel network limited by locations?

I don't doubt that the capability is there to produce it, but what about the situation with cabling?

At the minute the amount of people who have had a charger put in is very small so it's not a problem, now imagine your whole street needs a fast charger at every house, it's not just a few extra light bulbs so would it require digging up every local area to upgrade the cabling?

It's a lot of extra amps, especially if everyone comes home and charges their car at the same time, it would make the Christmas day half time Corrie cuppa tame in comparison!

 

[Vinny]

Why when most houses can have the ability to charge a car would you go back to a fuel network limited by locations?

People own cars for their total convenience, for no other reason. Batteries are as about as inconvenient as things come - clockwork would be preferable and more convenient.

We now have battery farms, i think one went up in Wales a couple of years ago so storage is being put in slowly.

Unfortunately i think they are another Lithium user but something better must come along.

I do not mean to be anything other than factual, but more convenient than lithium? More energy dense than lithium? That leaves hydrogen... It is VERY simple redox reactions - that is chemistry.

 

[gingermrkettle]

especially if everyone comes home and charges their car at the same time

But they don't. As before, most charging is overnight give stuff like Octopus Go, and single phase charging is 7A compared to the normal 80-100A fuse on most houses.

 

[Vinny]

current hydrogen production uses oil in a lot of cases

So what? Your point is?

You can stick any source of electricity - wave power, wind turbine - next to some water...................................

 

[Vinny]

But they don't

Pure unadulterated fantasy! Ever heard of commuters?

 

[gingermrkettle]

Pure unadulterated fantasy? Ever heard of commuters?

Yes, I have been one with my PHEV. Charger was set up to go from 00:30 onwards as the rate on Octopus Go drops to 5p/kWh compared to 16p otherwise.

 

[Vinny]

@gingermrkettle you are living in fantasy land.

I wish I could remember the numbers, but to have everyone using an electric car would require someting like double the current capacity of the national grid - it will be online somewhere. Doubling the capacity in ten years?

Pure, unadulterated fantasy.

 

[Martyn Miles]

By the times 2030 arrives I shall be well into ( very ) old age, so an electric car would
suit me.
Then again, I may well have passed away by then.
Perhaps the hearse will be electrically powered...

 

[gingermrkettle]

Find actual factual numbers and we can pick over the assumptions behind then. Until then I will go with the facts from all of the engineers I know in National Grid and the automotive sector.

 

[Bob McC]

It was Graeme Cooper at National Grid who has been regularly pointing out that there is capacity and will be. Look up his twitter feed, there are links to stuff like actual facts about the network.

And you, Vinny, are the only person I have seen vocally going for fuel cell over battery for cars (as opposed to HGVs etc.). Why when most houses can have the ability to charge a car would you go back to a fuel network limited by locations?

I have previously posted that fuel cells/hydrogen are the future and the battery car will go the way of the fax machine.
A blip in history and in less time.

 

[Vinny]

Ok, I was not far off -
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opi...lectricity-to-replace-petrol-and-diesel-cars/

So let's go for some headroom - we need to increase electricity generation by 150-200% in 10 years, note increase BY, not increase TO.

 

[Bob McC]

Yes, I have been one with my PHEV. Charger was set up to go from 00:30 onwards as the rate on Octopus Go drops to 5p/kWh compared to 16p otherwise.

And you pay how much during the day compared to standard tariffs?

 

[Vinny]

I have previously posted that fuel cells/hydrogen are the future and the battery car will go the way of the fax machine.
A blip in history and in less time.

Spoken with logic of an engineer, even if you aren't one.
Seems to me we have a lot of historian and sociologist large-city-dwellers posting on this thread.

 

[Vinny]

And you pay how much during the day compared to standard tariffs?

No matter - people only use their cars during 0600-1800, so can charge them 0200-0430. Did you not know this?

 

[Bob McC]

Do they live in electricity free homes?

 

[Seeker_UK]

Good to see Luddites still exist..........

Luddism has nothing to do it. I live in semi-rural Northants and although I do make short trips to town for shopping, the majority of my journeys are > 250 miles which is easy to do on a tank of fuel, not so easy with an EV without a 30 minute stop at the services.

But, I might be wrong, so:

• What's the range of your Zoe on a full charge?
• Can it get to full charge quicker than putting 65 litres of diesel in my car?

I'm sure there are great EVs out there that are engaging to drive but they're not sensible money.

 

[Seeker_UK]

We now have battery farms, i think one went up in Wales a couple of years ago so storage is being put in slowly.

Unfortunately i think they are another Lithium user but something better must come along.

I tried to start a battery farm but it failed. I planted them too close together.

 

[stevec67]

So what? Your point is?

You can stick any source of electricity - wave power, wind turbine - next to some water...................................

Pure unadulterated fantasy! Ever heard of commuters?

Do you adopt this tone in real life? I do hope not, it is tiresome. Please will you moderate it?. You are not the only person on here with an understanding of chemistry and or engineering, and your frequent sneering at anyone who takes a different view to you does you no favours.