Average UK worker would be £200 a week better off if real wages had grown at pre-crisis rate

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

He could say you are relentlessly left wing aren't you?.

People are allowed different views to yours and it's called democracy.

Can you point to where I have denied him his right to his views, Mick? But you should note that the Article 10 right to freedom of expression doesn't imply a right to express yourself freely without there being consequences. Like, at the very least, other people disagreeing with you and saying so (as is their Article 10 right, in turn). And I'm quite content being thought of as left wing, so thank you. I get to sleep at nights.

 

[Minio]

The fundamental question though is not about UK the compared to countries or this ideology or that ideology but: what can be done about it?

Blame Brexit and the Tories obvs.

 

[Mick P]

Can you point to where I have denied him his right to his views, Mick? But you should note that the Article 10 right to freedom of expression doesn't imply a right to express yourself freely without there being consequences. Like, at the very least, other people disagreeing with you and saying so (as is their Article 10 right, in turn). And I'm quite content being thought of as left wing, so thank you. I get to sleep at nights.

Your expression denoted an element of intolerance.

BTW - my son is up to his eyes in the local elections right now, but I will talk to him over the weekend about your point of aircraft pilot training.

 

[Kirk]

Odd, then, that that wasn't what your post said or implied. If you wanted to discuss that point, why not make it at the time rather than waste others' time on a point you now say you weren't making?

So, if your point is that other countries are heading on a similar trajectory, I'd respond by saying that:

• Yes, other countries are also feeling the effects of neoliberal ideologies; and
• There's been a broad and widespread drift rightwards; but
• The UK appears to be further down that route than many of our peer group; furthermore
• The effects appear to have bitten deeper here than in many of our peer group; and finally
• If we don't define the problem, we can't hope to address it. If we're further along the path than others, we ought to be closer to a turning point than others, so we need to grasp that particular nettle rather than pointing at fellow-travellers back a ways down the path, surely?

You misunderstood my post.

 

[Ponty]

Inflation on equipment and materials is hammering small businesses. I'm sure it must be a lot higher than the claimed RPI.

I sold a trailer last week for £2,000. I paid the equivalent of £2,900 in today's money (using B. of E. inflation rates) for it in 2018. It's current price is £4,800, which is 65% higher than it "should" be according to official inflation rates. Timber and petro-chemical based products seem to be the same.

I'm charging much more, but making less profit margin than I was 5 years ago, against a background of rapidly escalating materials and energy costs. I've worked out what I "should" charge, to keep pace with increased costs, but the prices would be extortionate (to people in Glasgow. Perhaps in Surrey people would happily pay up).

Pretty much everything has been artificially cheap. I bought a new vehicle in 2019, the same new one in 2024 cost me 50% more. Yes, it’s nuts, but looking back, things were cheap in 2019. Same with houses. I bought a property for 35% under asking because there were no buyers around. Then came covid and currency expansion. Look at construction costs now, much of the UK stock would be economically unviable to rebuild.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

You misunderstood my post.

Well, it was a bit gnomic.

 

[Ponty]

I figured this would descend into denialist muppetry from the Tory rumps fairly quickly.

On the original article, 2008 does sound right to me. I have family in the UK, and that was around the last time I can remember them saying they felt comfortably off. Everyone involved has a normal "doing things that need to be done" job.

Nominal wages have increased, but costs of living (especially rents) have more than overtaken those gains. Don't get me wrong.. they were okay in 2008 and none of them are "poor" now, but I get a definite feeling from speaking with them that the last 15 years of hard work for career progression has basically amounted to nothing.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence what happened post 2008. ZIRP and QE. These policies make those without assets poorer because they allow asset prices to explode. Those without capital behind them don’t have a chance against this backdrop. This also enabled many to rely on cheap and easy leverage to sustain a lifestyle (even a basic one) which was otherwise unobtainable. A reversion to mean comes along and things implode as wages won’t keep up with the increased cost of servicing debt.

 

[misterdog]

You really are relentlessly right wing tory aren’t you?

Because I'm not a badge wearing socialist I must be a right wing tory.

I would suggest that shows a very blinkered attitude, but political dogmatism works like that.

I think you will find that many are like myself and can see two sides to a coin.

 

[stevec67]

Pretty much everything has been artificially cheap. I bought a new vehicle in 2019, the same new one in 2024 cost me 50% more. Yes, it’s nuts, but looking back, things were cheap in 2019. Same with houses. I bought a property for 35% under asking because there were no buyers around. Then came covid and currency expansion. Look at construction costs now, much of the UK stock would be economically unviable to rebuild.

Consumer stuff still is cheap. Food, after a bit of a blip, has steadied down. Clothing is incredibly cheap. I buy cotton chino type trousers for work, one pair were £10, the others £16. Some workwear trousers, with the external pockets, were £10. Electricals, the same. Asda has a special on everyone s favourite kitchen gadget of the moment, £25. Cars are still expensive, the days of the £1000 banger that's good for another 2 or 3, maybe 4, years, seem to be over. Between 2009-19 you could pick and choose.

 

[misterdog]

On the original article, 2008 does sound right to me. I have family in the UK, and that was around the last time I can remember them saying they felt comfortably off.

The final years of Gordon Brown’s government were tough.

His leadership of Britain and the G20 at the London summit stopped the collapse of Lehman Brothers triggering a global depression – an incredible achievement we should never have stopped shouting about. But the recession slashed Treasury tax receipts by over £40bn, forcing us to borrow to keep public services on the go and get Britain back on its feet. And because the deficit was big, the responsible thing to do was draw up a long-term plan to cut spending.


Liam Byrne says ‘there’s no money’ note harmed Labour’s election campaign
Read more
In government, it was my job to craft a plan. As chief secretary, I spent bruising months negotiating £32bn of annual savings to help halve the deficit in just four years and set out in huge detail in our 2010 budget.

‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne, chief secretary to the Treasury under Gordon Brown, left a note for his successor that proved to be a gift for the Conservatives

www.theguardian.com

I spent bruising months negotiating £32bn of annual savings to help halve the deficit in just four years

So £ 260 billion of cuts required and presented by labour.

Someone mentioned the rise of billionaires earlier.

 

[ks.234]

So run by me again how bad the Tories are.

F*cking awful

 

[misterdog]

F*cking awful

Though if you had endured communism in Romania during the 1970's you would have been bowing at their feet with the opportunity to vote for an alternative and not be sent to a labour camp for publicly denouncing them. IMO.

 

[ks.234]

Though if you had endured communism in Romania during the 1970's you would have been bowing at their feet with the opportunity to vote for an alternative and not be sent to a labour camp for publicly denouncing them. IMO.

Yes, you're right. The only alternative to Thatcherism is east european communism

 

[misterdog]

It was highly promoted at the time, by the TUC and others.

The Socialist Labour Party: Scargill seeks to resurrect Stalinism under a flag of convenience

In the 2001 British general election, the Socialist Labour Party (SLP) polled 57,288 votes. As its name suggests, it stood on a platform which advanced the party as the continuator of old-style Labour reformism. It sought to make political capital from Scargill’s other job as President of the...

www.wsws.org

 

[Ponty]

Consumer stuff still is cheap. Food, after a bit of a blip, has steadied down. Clothing is incredibly cheap. I buy cotton chino type trousers for work, one pair were £10, the others £16. Some workwear trousers, with the external pockets, were £10. Electricals, the same. Asda has a special on everyone s favourite kitchen gadget of the moment, £25. Cars are still expensive, the days of the £1000 banger that's good for another 2 or 3, maybe 4, years, seem to be over. Between 2009-19 you could pick and choose.

Yes I agree, food is still cheap. Clothes are an odd one. They can be incredibly cheap (slave labour etc…), yet some will run up vast credit card debts they can ill afford to buy expensive ones (probably still slave labour but with labels on them…). My theory is that housing will continue to suck whatever disposable income people have out of their wallets. Supply simply won’t keep up with the population.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Because I'm not a badge wearing socialist I must be a right wing tory.

I would suggest that shows a very blinkered attitude, but political dogmatism works like that.

I think you will find that many are like myself and can see two sides to a coin.

No, I think you’re relentlessly tory because you repeatedly write things like you wrote in the post I replied to.

 

[stevec67]

Yes I agree, food is still cheap. Clothes are an odd one. They can be incredibly cheap (slave labour etc…), yet some will run up vast credit card debts they can ill afford to buy expensive ones (probably still slave labour but with labels on them…). My theory is that housing will continue to suck whatever disposable income people have out of their wallets. Supply simply won’t keep up with the population.

I frequently buy basic clothing at Asda. It's easy, the quality is OK and I know that they have a pretty robust anti slavery & ethical trading policy. You can imagine that if there's an exposé or a garment factory fire and the place is full of George brand clothing it will do them immense harm. All it takes is a cheap hidden camera and a guy on YouTube, after all. I supply their food, I know that they take that aspect of supply seriously. I'm trying to do some interrogation re the same thing in clothing, it's hard to get beyond the bland policy statement s and into the details.

 

[lawrence001]

Interesting article by Rogoff in the Guardian today

Higher interest rates make government debt unviable as an economic solution | Kenneth Rogoff

Big economies such as the US must change fiscal policy as the realities of debt and inflation bite

www.theguardian.com

 

[ks.234]

Interesting article by Rogoff in the Guardian today

Higher interest rates make government debt unviable as an economic solution | Kenneth Rogoff

Big economies such as the US must change fiscal policy as the realities of debt and inflation bite

www.theguardian.com

Rogoff is an advocate of austerity who has used dodgy data to support his claims.

Not sure what is interesting about his article apart from the fact that austerity is the main driver of our economic decline and one of the main vehicles for the lowering of wages that is the topic of this thread

 

[ks.234]

It was highly promoted at the time, by the TUC and others.

The Socialist Labour Party: Scargill seeks to resurrect Stalinism under a flag of convenience

In the 2001 British general election, the Socialist Labour Party (SLP) polled 57,288 votes. As its name suggests, it stood on a platform which advanced the party as the continuator of old-style Labour reformism. It sought to make political capital from Scargill’s other job as President of the...

www.wsws.org

What has what one man said two decades ago that got to do with the topic?