Audiophile snobbery...?

[Fretbuzz]

Once people accept the axiom “you get what you pay for,” the results are entirely predictable. People believe the more something costs, the better it is. This opens up huge opportunities for exploitatively high prices, and more depressing, it actively discourages companies from developing high-quality products for reasonable prices...because many people seeking high quality won’t take those lower-priced products seriously.

Spot on. Default false '£500 amps vs. £1000 amps'-type constructs in the hifi press certainly don't help. It can also prevent people from thinking about relative and absolute value - eg say an amp that might cost £500 in its country of origin but £1000 in another. Suddenly better?

Plus that amp might now be 'competing' with a £1000 home-team one that costs £1500 back where the £500 one resides, etc.

 

[Mike P]

Once people accept the axiom “you get what you pay for,” the results are entirely predictable. People believe the more something costs, the better it is. This opens up huge opportunities for exploitatively high prices, and more depressing, it actively discourages companies from developing high-quality products for reasonable prices...because many people seeking high quality won’t take those lower-priced products seriously.

Indeed.

I work for a brand that makes high-end sport equipment. Our products are made in Spain to the highest standards and we sell directly to UK retailers rather than selling through a UK based distributor. Because we have no distributor taking their margin our products typically work out better value for money than our competitors. I regularly get people telling me that our products can't be as good as our competitors products because they're "cheaper". People also don't seem to understand that RRP prices are just made up! A very common tactic amongst our competitors is to inflate the RRP prices and then sell with generous discounts so that customers think they're getting a bargain.

 

[James]

I rather like reverse snobbery, where I quietly (to myself only, I should clarify) mock those who fell for the chintz and glitz whilst enjoying my bargain-basement toys that punch well above their weight.

 

[RJohan]

Tuners from Japanese manufacturers were typically better at weak signals, but sound quality from the 2075 was better than top-end Pioneer, Sansui or Luxman which we had to hand. Couple of 'live' broadcasts I remember on the 2075 were absolutely stunning, still the best I ever heard from FM.

A great pity that hardly any of the 'old time' Scandinavian electronics brands are no longer, or if they do exist, are not manufacturing in their homeland. Copland(?) might be one exception, struggling to think of any others. The speaker/drive unit manufacturers have perhaps fared a little better I think.

Tandberg (as well as Revox) came from a country with, lets call it 'variable' radio reception, so they simply had to be good. Pity there is no FM broadcast anymore for the Norwegians...

Not much left of the once glorious Scandinavian HiFi-industry, but SEAS and ScanSpeak seem to do very well as driver suppliers.

 

[Beobloke]

I'm not sure. Certainly all the integrated amps up to and including the 3000 Series are Malaysian built. I don't know about the new separates (5000?).

The C-5000 and M-5000 are built in Malaysia. They are also the best sounding amplifiers that I have ever had pass through my listening room.

I still miss them and have even (shock, horror!) been considering selling a few turntables and putting the proceeds towards a set of my own.

 

[notevenclose]

The C-5000 and M-5000 are built in Malaysia. They are also the best sounding amplifiers that I have ever had pass through my listening room.

I still miss them and have even (shock, horror!) been considering selling a few turntables and putting the proceeds towards a set of my own.

Steady. Lie down in a darkened room for a while, mentally strip and reassemble a vintage deck of your choice, and it'll pass.

 

[Ponty]

Last year I downsized from 2 racks of Naim amps. I bought an 803 for another system, tried it in the main system and it hasn’t moved since! It’s brilliant. Have a 402 and 303 in other systems, both amazing for the money.

HiFi pricing is an interesting one. With some things, there is no way I’d go ‘cheap’ as you absolutely get what you pay for eg chainsaws. I’ve found that with HiFi, the price tag is often irrelevant.

 

[russel]

It's funny, hifi rarely saw Veblen goods 30 years ago. Even with a Krell or Levinson, whether you liked it or not, you could see where the money went, despite it being expensive. Casework and turntables can now be so blingy and over-built that there's no way the extravagant costs relate to what's in the box. Ken Kessler with his obsession with high end watches and the way he banged on for years that hifi should take a leaf out of that market did a great deal to set this up!

Veblen goods don’t really work for electronics as they do watches, a watch can be a hundred years old and still work, a hundred year old amplifier would be like Triggers broom, just look at the number of manufacturers who have tried to make money out of hi end phones like Vertu etc.

 

[Tony L]

Veblen goods don’t really work for electronics as they do watches, a watch can be a hundred years old and still work, a hundred year old amplifier would be like Triggers broom

Obviously it all depends how it has been maintained, and botches and mods will always devalue a classic be it a car, guitar amp or hi-fi amp, but skilled sympathetic restoration to ensure correct function adds value. There are certainly countless highly valuable guitar and hi-fi amps that are well over 60 years old. I can’t remember the exact dates but I think the Leak 12.1 power amp came out in the late 40s and they have a huge following today. Even a quite tatty one is worth circa £3k, a matched pair a good bit more. Same applies to so many early guitar amps too. Seriously good investments assuming you buy right and aren’t tempted to ruin it with bad repair or incorrect restoration attempts.

 

[RJohan]

Clothes, when called 'Fashion' seem to be like HiFi, function have very little to do with the price and only initiated notice the difference. It can even (I've heard) still be manuftured in a western democracy where workers get a fair wage and can choose to be, or not to be, members of a trade union.

 

[pocketkitchen]

Veblen goods don’t really work for electronics as they do watches, a watch can be a hundred years old and still work, a hundred year old amplifier would be like Triggers broom, just look at the number of manufacturers who have tried to make money out of hi end phones like Vertu etc.

I know where you're coming from, but some of them definitely are Veblen goods, with people believing they're better because of their high price. Take your point re: Vertu but a Ferrari won't last 100 years (I'm sure there'll be the odd preserved exception, mind), either. There's plenty of hifi still going strong 60 years later though.

 

[JTWzen]

Well snobbery or not, I also own, and love, a Yamaha R-N803D, to give it its' full name, and I have other Yamaha gear dotted round the house as well.
The 803 is a brilliant piece of kit, which drives my Spendors brilliantly, and I have no wish to take any more esoteric path.
I remember a few reviews when it came out which were fairly positive I think but they were few and far between and I can not for the life of me understand why these did not fly off the shelf.
My appreciation of Yamaha came when I first started streaming seriously and I bought a streaming CD player the CD=N500 which was also excellent, it's still there, though not used fot streaming, just in case i need to play an actual CD.

 

[Del monaco]

Well snobbery or not, I also own, and love, a Yamaha R-N803D, to give it its' full name, and I have other Yamaha gear dotted round the house as well.
The 803 is a brilliant piece of kit, which drives my Spendors brilliantly, and I have no wish to take any more esoteric path.
I remember a few reviews when it came out which were fairly positive I think but they were few and far between and I can not for the life of me understand why these did not fly off the shelf.
My appreciation of Yamaha came when I first started streaming seriously and I bought a streaming CD player the CD=N500 which was also excellent, it's still there, though not used fot streaming, just in case i need to play an actual CD.

I think it’s a real hidden gem.

 

[Del monaco]

It’s interesting reading the Absolute Sounds review of the 803D. Overall a complimentary review but ,as I inferred, muted. The reviewer refers to good sound in the headline but then says he is focusing on features rather than sound later in the review. He then refers to the sound as ‘above average’, damned by faint praise. He admits to not being a digital fan then uses Spotify to test the digital prowess(a compressed format!).He seems to mostly play vinyl. The 803D has a decent phono stage but it’s not really the main point of the amp. It’s the only bit I upgraded. He can’t even get the remote app to work.It’s easy. Why do reviewers who are clearly clueless about the new digital era review these products? For me it is a real gem, a kind of vfm Devialet type device that does all to a high standard.It has the power to drive my tough to drive LRSs. It plays higher quality streams beautifully.Paradise sounds great and I’ve tried a few 2L samples through the dad usb which sound excellent. It has an excellent sounding fm reception through my external aerial and the Dab + is half decent despite it being DAB. The phono stage is very decent and does all it needs to well. The Sabre Dac is great and lifts the performance of my Pi and CD transport effectively. It even eked more out of my previous B&W speakers before I PX’d them for the LRSs. The YPAO is an interesting feature that does change the sound but I have settled on the Pure Direct mode for now.
IMO the reviewer was either a mismatch for the review due to his clear inexperience with Digital Hubs like this and his Vinyl first philosophy or it was a poorly conceived piece of reviewing. I think it’s way better than the review suggests and is a great match for my beautifully transparent speakers. Credit where credit’s due I think.

 

[Del monaco]

@Del monaco
Yamaha makes some very good 2 channel audio equipment. They also make a ton of mass market gear, and that's where the low-end stigma comes from. If you stick to the good stuff by doing your research, then Yamaha is fine kit.
My gear is pretty much all Brit (Naim/Kef) cuz I've been at this awhile, but you can put together a very nice sounding system for a h*ll of a lot less than I spent.

Always like Kef. I’ve often thought of buying vintage 107/2s.

 

[Yank]

Once people accept the axiom “you get what you pay for,” the results are entirely predictable. People believe the more something costs, the better it is. This opens up huge opportunities for exploitatively high prices, and more depressing, it actively discourages companies from developing high-quality products for reasonable prices...because many people seeking high quality won’t take those lower-priced products seriously.

That's pricing what the market will bear. I'd prefer to see pricing based on cost to develop, manufacture and market plus a reasonable profit. But then I'd also prefer world peace.

 

[Del monaco]

My FIL used to own a pair.Thunderous things they were and lovely with classical music. I think they may have been on the end of Naim 52/250x2 set up. Saw some on the Bay yesterday.

 

[Yank]

Spot on. Default false '£500 amps vs. £1000 amps'-type constructs in the hifi press certainly don't help. It can also prevent people from thinking about relative and absolute value - eg say an amp that might cost £500 in its country of origin but £1000 in another. Suddenly better?

Plus that amp might now be 'competing' with a £1000 home-team one that costs £1500 back where the £500 one resides, etc.

There was a time in the '70s and '80s when a lot of British products' retail prices in their homeland, including VAT, was less than the dealer cost for the same item in the USA.

For example, I bought a Rega RB300 direct from a dealer in East Sussex for a price that worked out to $99, at a time when US dealer cost was $180 and US retail was almost twice that. It helped that on the day I went to the bank to buy a cashier's check in British Pounds, the Pound hit its historic low relative to the US Dollar. (25 Feb 1985)