Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Absolutely! These things matter!
Audiophile Network Switches for Streaming ... really ?
- Thread starter beammeup
- Start date
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Do check that you have a Northern Hemisphere braid, the Southern Hemisphere one goes the other way. If it's a Chinese origin product, sometimes the wrong one gets shipped.
chiily
PFM Special Builder
No, tell me they don't say that? Please....
Not a valid comparison at all! The output of a DAC, for each channel (for which eventual subjective differences are claimed) is a single time-varying value (voltage) for which it is possible to devise accurate tests that compare the effects of variables such as different cables. The "inputs" that affect taste are hugely more complex and hard to pin down.
I don't think anyone has managed to digitise a "taste" signal yet. If they ever do, no doubt some will be arguing about changes of flavour due to different types of upstream router or USB cable!
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I don't think anybody has managed to digitise a 'hearing' signal either, and there's the rub.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
The teacup analogy is good one. It's widely reported that many people prefer the taste of tea from a nice Bone China cup. Now, as we all know, it doesn't change the composition of the tea one iota, but still people express a preference.
Much like audiophile routers and 25k music servers. They make no difference, yet some people still prefer them.
Much like audiophile routers and 25k music servers. They make no difference, yet some people still prefer them.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
And yet, some possible mechanisms for why tea may taste better/different emerged upthread. Presumably after research into what might be going on. Presumably also, the wealth of anecdotal evidence (my grandma, and my mum both preferred china so this isn't recent) for the preference made somebody do some research. They didn't just say 'the composition of the tea is the same, so this can't be a thing, these people are delusional/expectation bias/placebo, mutter, mutter, unicorn farts...'
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
No, apparently the container may deliver the tea differently (have a read upthread about sticky tannins) so a possible physical mechanism was discovered.
See post #1014….
Also well-known that eating food with cutlery made of different materials (eg gold, brass, aluminium) can affect the taste in blind tests….
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/...metallic-cutlery-affect-perception-food-taste
Nothing to do with the network issue, but let’s keep the science clean at least!
I think the same principles might apply to alcoholic drinks. No doubt a nice gin cocktail tastes better in a proper glass rather than a paper cup. At least for the first two or three. After this personally I feel it’s a bit less important.
So perhaps 2 years supply of gin and forget about the network switch.
Well, I'm not trying to pick an argument or score points, or be too serious about this. All I am saying is that any perceived differences in the replay chain must appear in the (one-variable) voltage signal emerging from the DAC, which is independent of how the ear operates, though of course the ear has a role in the subjective effect of any actual differences in the electronic signal. All talk of subjective differences, if "objective" in the sense that they are reproducible, and that more than one person can hear them, MUST be due to a tangible difference in the electrical signal (even if how real differences map to subjective differences is not completely understood).
Subjective taste (literal, i.e. in the mouth) is entirely different. Even assuming a "taste" (or "smell") signal were possible, it would presumably need to characterise a large number of different orthogonal components. Might be a good enhancement for TV cookery programmes though.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Yes, I’m trying not to let this get too serious on my part too, hence these amusing little side diversions 
. But just to continue, a little more: a musical waveform is arguably as complex as the mixture of compounds that make up a smell, or taste, and the ‘output’ we all seek is the most pleasurable experience from our perceptions of the relevant sensory input. My takeaway from the food/drink analogies is that small differences can and do affect perception (and, as an aside, that blind tests can blunt those perceptions - think of the blind wine tastings that get cited). I’m not sure anybody has tried to argue that such and such a change to the balance of tannin hitting the tongue is ‘below the threshold of taste’. I suspect our threshold for perception of auditory phenomena is more acute than mere audibility assessments would have us believe.
And in the spirit of the main topic of the thread: Is it not possible that, as well as / instead of affecting the output of the DAC, any noise upstream of the DAC may pass through it and intermodulate with the signal after the DAC?
. But just to continue, a little more: a musical waveform is arguably as complex as the mixture of compounds that make up a smell, or taste, and the ‘output’ we all seek is the most pleasurable experience from our perceptions of the relevant sensory input. My takeaway from the food/drink analogies is that small differences can and do affect perception (and, as an aside, that blind tests can blunt those perceptions - think of the blind wine tastings that get cited). I’m not sure anybody has tried to argue that such and such a change to the balance of tannin hitting the tongue is ‘below the threshold of taste’. I suspect our threshold for perception of auditory phenomena is more acute than mere audibility assessments would have us believe.And in the spirit of the main topic of the thread: Is it not possible that, as well as / instead of affecting the output of the DAC, any noise upstream of the DAC may pass through it and intermodulate with the signal after the DAC?
Steve - I’m not sure that blind tests necessarily ‘blunt perceptions’ but rather reveal just how limited those perceptions are, and that they rely on other inputs/cues to be noticeable. It is teasing out whether those cues induce real or unreal (induced by bias) perceptions that is the basis most arguments.
The difficulties re compounded by language issues. Sight has plenty of nouns/adjectives to share experience, but taste/smell especially are very difficult to describe or share in any exact way due to language limitations.
The difficulties re compounded by language issues. Sight has plenty of nouns/adjectives to share experience, but taste/smell especially are very difficult to describe or share in any exact way due to language limitations.
miktec
retired
Some people hate sprouts ... this has to do with how they taste to them and their acuity to certain elements and chemical doodahs they contain (apparently)
I love sprouts though (provided they aren't over-cooked)
So that's Xmas sorted any way....
But on the subject of ethernet switches I found they made no subjective difference in my experience of the music.
Apparently this is because there is no objective difference to be found in the signal with or without the switch.
So that's Xmas sorted even more .... saved meself £2,800 to spend on alcohol
I love sprouts though (provided they aren't over-cooked)
So that's Xmas sorted any way....
But on the subject of ethernet switches I found they made no subjective difference in my experience of the music.
Apparently this is because there is no objective difference to be found in the signal with or without the switch.
So that's Xmas sorted even more .... saved meself £2,800 to spend on alcohol
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
It boils down to this.
Either you trust that measuring the dac output to a high enough resolution and bandwidth and comparing results is the best way to see if there's any difference.
Or you believe your ears are more capable of accurate assessment of sound than measuring gear is.
We get it, you have special auditory powers in your 65 year old lugs.
Either you trust that measuring the dac output to a high enough resolution and bandwidth and comparing results is the best way to see if there's any difference.
Or you believe your ears are more capable of accurate assessment of sound than measuring gear is.
We get it, you have special auditory powers in your 65 year old lugs.
Of course I do, its what their for.
More likely to affect the DAC itself, but even if it was passed on (i.e. along the cable to the next component, typically an amplifier) one might expect the effect to vary wildly between different amplifiers. And (in the nature of RF noise carried in this way) for the level also to vary wildly with small variations in say how the cable was coiled or whatever else was in close proximity. As a result it seems to me VERY unlikely that one could ascribe any consistent subjective attribute to a particular switch. Or indeed to one of those ludicrously expensive network storage devices, where the manufacturers claim all sorts of tangible subjective advantages. They don't say - "might make some difference to you, in a lot of cases it won't, but might be worth a try" - but very much try to claim it just makes a big improvement all round.
Another factor might be transmission of noise via the mains, but again all the same variables apply, so IMHO it would seem extremely unlikely that any specific attribute could be applied to a switch.