RichardAusten
pfm Member
Most people are not buying Audio Note as their first audio purchase. Virtually 100% of Audio Note buyers owned, previously, a SS amplifier, an Over or upsampling CD player that measures much better, and speakers that likely measured better.
Audio Note is a trifecta of bad measurements - SET amplifiers measure worse than class D, SS, Push Pull tubes and worse than $400 surround sound receiver. You then add the worst measuring CD players ON TOP of those amplifiers. Then you run that into an AN E speakers which is "middling" especially in terms of what Stereophile deems to be the best measuring speakers for 1/4 the price.
Then you put all that bad measuring stuff together as my dealer did on Vancouver Island - I would listen to the top of the line Bryston Separates or Anthem or Classe or Rotel on Dynaudio /B&W or the NRC approved Paradigm loudspeakers that follow to the letter the Floyd E Toole approach to speaker design. Unlistenable dredge compared to the Audio Note system.
As an all measurements and science first guy, stuff like Audio Note and Cary and Shindo is all laughably absurd silliness from old Luddites and conmen trying to sell pretty shiny tube glow to the unsuspecting.
Then one day I walked into the dealer ready to buy some awesome measuring Bryston Separates around a 3BST power amp and preamp. I sat in a chair and was listening to some of the most amazing audio I had ever heard - besting everything I auditioned the decade prior. I looked over and saw this massive silver box as the integrated amplifier - the pristine clarity and deep but tuneful bass - the tuneful bass is what the Paradigms et all lacked. But it was the clarity - the treble that was supremely clear but without the hash/noise of the tweeter on top B&Ws that give you a headache after a while.
So after the session, I asked the dealer about the amplifier. I say to him "How many watts does the massive box put out. He says "8". I rely Wow 800 watts per channel is a beast." He says "no, 8, 8 watts." Moments last a lady walked by looked left and right "I thought there was a piano piano"
I have to tell you that after 10 years of reading measurement plots and graphs that day was an ear-opener. It's especially frustrating for an Atheist who was into measurements as gospel to have what amounts to have a religious conversion to stuff that measures so SO SOOOOOOOOOO bad!
So then I tried to look at what the maker was saying about the time domain and perhaps that is where the advantage lay - whether the poor measurements were landing in the audio spectrum where and how bad. Was the noise of the dac being suppressed by the transformers - the transformer acts as a filter and again if connected to their preamp which are also transformer based.
It was unclear as to how even the Audio Note OTO Phono SE (10 watts per channel 4.2 watts undistorted) could be sounding so much clearer than Bryston separates. I kept having to put the volume up and up on the Bryston to make things out as well and to get a more full-bodied sound. Being Canadian I knew Bryston well - it came with a 20-year warranty and was 120 watts per channel (often measuring 160 watts per channel - they measure each one and put a card in the box showing how your amp actually did). Was I really going to pass that up for some no-name, AN was a no name back then, with only 10 watts and no preouts or preins and didn't even show the tubes to make it look cool, and with only a 2-year warranty? Umm, I keep listening went back many times - made sure the connections were correct and they were not putting the Bryston out of phase. Surely it could not sound THAT BAD vs this dopey 10-watt tube amp. Had to keep going back because I know all about the "2nd harmonics will seduce you but only for a short time" arguments and the "People like distortion" - but I kept thinking "If distortion is the problem why can I hear the singer clearer" Why can I play this system at a lower volume 60dB to 70dB and not feel the need to play at 80-90dB of the Bryston to get all the information? And never getting it. Where was the warble in the vocals, where was the loud hiss, where was something I could say - "see that right there at the 3minute and 8-second mark - that is where the OTO is showing huge distortion and the Bryston is better." Months going back and trying and trying disc after disc large scale, small scale rock, jazz pop, classical, opera, hard rock.
Noise Floor - Bryston was well known for being one of the lowest noise floor amps in the audio industry - probably still are. So this is the win - walking close up to the speaker there was slightly more noise from the OTO - that could explain the sensation one gets that there is more ambiance generated from the amplifier and not actually on the recording. But you could not hear that noise from the seating positon and it didn't increase with the volume level. In ten end I bought the OTO (19 years later I still have it). The problem is my brain tells me the Bryston is a vastly superior measuring machine - and it is I suppose at least as far as my knowledge of this stuff goes. I can't see arguing the fact. But at the same time, I also can't just ignore my hands-on experience of listening either. Eventually, I decided that there is plain toast. Plain toast is accurate and unadulterated and "neutral" - but I can't eat plain toast. I need peanut butter and jam, or butter and cinnamon, or cheese, or butter and sardines, or make it into French toast with Canadian pure maple syrup. Listening to the Bryston is like eating plain toast - dry and unexciting. The OTO makes it taste better.
What I also found interesting was Steve Hoffman - here is a man that has recorded and mastered some of the biggest acts in the world from Pink Floyd to Miles Davis, John Coltrane to Linda Rondstadt to the Eagles - and he has done much of this on SACD. He worked in the studio for decades with the Brystons and ATC speakers of the world - the best measuring pro gear.
Then you see his system list - Audio Note DAC 4.1x with a CDT 3 transport! Two pairs of AN E speakers (one at home and one in the mastering studio) an Audio Note Preamp 9 Phono and Ongaku power amp.
So here is a guy using all the best measuring equipment and says - yes but for actually listening and enjoying all this music - I'm buying a SET amplifier with an ungodly bad measuring CD player system into worse than ATC measuring speakers.
UHF MAgazine measured an old CD player and were shocked how bad it measured - UHF was one of the few magazines that doled out bad reviews - they had a panel of three or more reviewers sit and listen. One is an engineer who has written books on audio. They listened and did the measurements and said that it simply sounded better than their reference CD player (a much more expensive CD player). What can you do? Stereophile's Art Dudley noted that the bad measuring CD 4.1x, that JA took apart, was the best CD player he has ever heard. They still put it in their Class A section for digital and that is in spite of the fact that as Peter Qvortrup put it "measures like a bag of nails"
It's not like AN can't go out and buy ESS Sabre chips and make a great measuring DAC - they have the best measuring equipment that can be bought - they have machines that make their own circuit boards in house. They choose to do what they do because it sounds better.
They'll never convince anyone with the specs or measurements - they can't. They have to get you to try it. And try it unbiased like my pseudo blind audition where I thought I was listening to a massive SS system.
Here is reviewer Peter Breuninger discussing NOS with PQ. PQ is not an engineer though - he hires engineers.
Audio Note is a trifecta of bad measurements - SET amplifiers measure worse than class D, SS, Push Pull tubes and worse than $400 surround sound receiver. You then add the worst measuring CD players ON TOP of those amplifiers. Then you run that into an AN E speakers which is "middling" especially in terms of what Stereophile deems to be the best measuring speakers for 1/4 the price.
Then you put all that bad measuring stuff together as my dealer did on Vancouver Island - I would listen to the top of the line Bryston Separates or Anthem or Classe or Rotel on Dynaudio /B&W or the NRC approved Paradigm loudspeakers that follow to the letter the Floyd E Toole approach to speaker design. Unlistenable dredge compared to the Audio Note system.
As an all measurements and science first guy, stuff like Audio Note and Cary and Shindo is all laughably absurd silliness from old Luddites and conmen trying to sell pretty shiny tube glow to the unsuspecting.
Then one day I walked into the dealer ready to buy some awesome measuring Bryston Separates around a 3BST power amp and preamp. I sat in a chair and was listening to some of the most amazing audio I had ever heard - besting everything I auditioned the decade prior. I looked over and saw this massive silver box as the integrated amplifier - the pristine clarity and deep but tuneful bass - the tuneful bass is what the Paradigms et all lacked. But it was the clarity - the treble that was supremely clear but without the hash/noise of the tweeter on top B&Ws that give you a headache after a while.
So after the session, I asked the dealer about the amplifier. I say to him "How many watts does the massive box put out. He says "8". I rely Wow 800 watts per channel is a beast." He says "no, 8, 8 watts." Moments last a lady walked by looked left and right "I thought there was a piano piano"
I have to tell you that after 10 years of reading measurement plots and graphs that day was an ear-opener. It's especially frustrating for an Atheist who was into measurements as gospel to have what amounts to have a religious conversion to stuff that measures so SO SOOOOOOOOOO bad!
So then I tried to look at what the maker was saying about the time domain and perhaps that is where the advantage lay - whether the poor measurements were landing in the audio spectrum where and how bad. Was the noise of the dac being suppressed by the transformers - the transformer acts as a filter and again if connected to their preamp which are also transformer based.
It was unclear as to how even the Audio Note OTO Phono SE (10 watts per channel 4.2 watts undistorted) could be sounding so much clearer than Bryston separates. I kept having to put the volume up and up on the Bryston to make things out as well and to get a more full-bodied sound. Being Canadian I knew Bryston well - it came with a 20-year warranty and was 120 watts per channel (often measuring 160 watts per channel - they measure each one and put a card in the box showing how your amp actually did). Was I really going to pass that up for some no-name, AN was a no name back then, with only 10 watts and no preouts or preins and didn't even show the tubes to make it look cool, and with only a 2-year warranty? Umm, I keep listening went back many times - made sure the connections were correct and they were not putting the Bryston out of phase. Surely it could not sound THAT BAD vs this dopey 10-watt tube amp. Had to keep going back because I know all about the "2nd harmonics will seduce you but only for a short time" arguments and the "People like distortion" - but I kept thinking "If distortion is the problem why can I hear the singer clearer" Why can I play this system at a lower volume 60dB to 70dB and not feel the need to play at 80-90dB of the Bryston to get all the information? And never getting it. Where was the warble in the vocals, where was the loud hiss, where was something I could say - "see that right there at the 3minute and 8-second mark - that is where the OTO is showing huge distortion and the Bryston is better." Months going back and trying and trying disc after disc large scale, small scale rock, jazz pop, classical, opera, hard rock.
Noise Floor - Bryston was well known for being one of the lowest noise floor amps in the audio industry - probably still are. So this is the win - walking close up to the speaker there was slightly more noise from the OTO - that could explain the sensation one gets that there is more ambiance generated from the amplifier and not actually on the recording. But you could not hear that noise from the seating positon and it didn't increase with the volume level. In ten end I bought the OTO (19 years later I still have it). The problem is my brain tells me the Bryston is a vastly superior measuring machine - and it is I suppose at least as far as my knowledge of this stuff goes. I can't see arguing the fact. But at the same time, I also can't just ignore my hands-on experience of listening either. Eventually, I decided that there is plain toast. Plain toast is accurate and unadulterated and "neutral" - but I can't eat plain toast. I need peanut butter and jam, or butter and cinnamon, or cheese, or butter and sardines, or make it into French toast with Canadian pure maple syrup. Listening to the Bryston is like eating plain toast - dry and unexciting. The OTO makes it taste better.
What I also found interesting was Steve Hoffman - here is a man that has recorded and mastered some of the biggest acts in the world from Pink Floyd to Miles Davis, John Coltrane to Linda Rondstadt to the Eagles - and he has done much of this on SACD. He worked in the studio for decades with the Brystons and ATC speakers of the world - the best measuring pro gear.
Then you see his system list - Audio Note DAC 4.1x with a CDT 3 transport! Two pairs of AN E speakers (one at home and one in the mastering studio) an Audio Note Preamp 9 Phono and Ongaku power amp.
So here is a guy using all the best measuring equipment and says - yes but for actually listening and enjoying all this music - I'm buying a SET amplifier with an ungodly bad measuring CD player system into worse than ATC measuring speakers.
UHF MAgazine measured an old CD player and were shocked how bad it measured - UHF was one of the few magazines that doled out bad reviews - they had a panel of three or more reviewers sit and listen. One is an engineer who has written books on audio. They listened and did the measurements and said that it simply sounded better than their reference CD player (a much more expensive CD player). What can you do? Stereophile's Art Dudley noted that the bad measuring CD 4.1x, that JA took apart, was the best CD player he has ever heard. They still put it in their Class A section for digital and that is in spite of the fact that as Peter Qvortrup put it "measures like a bag of nails"
It's not like AN can't go out and buy ESS Sabre chips and make a great measuring DAC - they have the best measuring equipment that can be bought - they have machines that make their own circuit boards in house. They choose to do what they do because it sounds better.
They'll never convince anyone with the specs or measurements - they can't. They have to get you to try it. And try it unbiased like my pseudo blind audition where I thought I was listening to a massive SS system.
Here is reviewer Peter Breuninger discussing NOS with PQ. PQ is not an engineer though - he hires engineers.
