All turntables sound the same apparently...
- Thread starter linnfomaniac83
- Start date
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Posh git!
Spencer Spicker
New Member
All the tables he tested were C- at best. The Linn LP12 and many others of the late 1970's could run circles around his choices. He is probably correct, all the tables sounded mush the same. Unfortunately that is a low bar. And, if his electronics and speakers were equally mediocre, then it is understandable that he heard little or no difference. Ivor Tiefenbrun defined the hi-fi hierarchy in the mid 1970's and it is still valid today. He also understood the physics of transferring information from a grove into sound coming from a speaker. He used to say that if you don't break a few cartridges when mounting them you are getting them tight enough. Bearings, tolerances were crucial, something none of the Japanese tables addressed. Most of those tables had easy change cartridge heads which are antithetical to energy transfer.
Ah, the 'your equipment is not good enough' claim. Always works, because so little is actually being said.
Problem is, there is very little evidence for anything Tiefenbrun has said. For believers this probably does not matter, of course.
forester
pfm Member
The first time I heard an LP12 was through a NAD 3020 and a pair of shouty Wharfedales that probably cost sixty quid at the time. It was so far ahead of anything I had heard before that I remember the experience still. The guy had only one cartridge (an ADC XLM I think) and had to mount it on the Rega 2 that my friend was auditioning to purchase from him, before returning it to the Linn (with Syrinx PU2) for us to have a quick listen. The Rega was good and I had a Planar 3 for four years but the Lp12 was in a different class altogether. So my point is that Ivor was correct as mentioned above but you don't need particularly special amps and speakers to hear it. When I bought my Rega 3 you didn't need anything more than the NAD 3020 to clearly hear the difference between the Regas 2 and 3, ADC phase 2, 3, and 4 cartridges, or the table the Rega was sat on.
Tony L
Administrator
I’d have expected the solidity and mass-damping of the remarkably heavy and well-made Technics to have provided very obviously audible improvements in isolation. No way I’d class an SL-1200 as a ‘C’ grade deck, many LP12 owners have happily migrated to them after all! The variable here is the condition the one in the test was in. It was apparently ex-DJ and had arrived with the arm-rest broken and lid smashed. As such its pretty safe to assume the arm bearings were trashed, maybe the main bearing too. I’d suggest replacing both on any ex-DJ deck, and that’s before it gets damaged in transit. To my mind the Technics should have been obviously better than any other deck in the test as it really is a classic and is also at least twice the price new (and that is factoring a huge economy of scale, it would be a lot more again if they weren’t made in the hundreds of thousands).
oldius
Manchester City, dogs, family and food.
With the same arm and cartridge, it is not easy to tell the differences between decks of a certain quality. I was utterly shocked by the performance of a Technics 1210 when fitted with a high end cartridge. I shouldn't have been because it is a proven deck that spins with high accuracy and is well damped to protect from resonance - effectively the features of a high end deck.
chartz
If it’s broke fix it!
Interesting thread.
Trouble is, each and every one will stay firmly on their own beliefs. Including myself.
I listened to Linn/Naim systems and they sounded ok, but much less so than full Quad systems I thought. The electrostatic panels do something really special no dynamic speaker can approach.
I enjoy playing records on various turntables, from a Beogram 4000 (Soundsmith cart) to a DD Technics!
They all sound not that different... but the cartridges do have very different characters. My favourites these days are AT’s with ML stylii.
I listen through very, very revealing electronics and speakers, transistor or valve.
I also enjoy full top-of-the-range B&O vintage systems.
You know what? In the end I find CD more trouble-free. I have many different players and they all sound much the same, i.e. correct, with no special sonic signatures. What a relief - or is it?
Trouble is, each and every one will stay firmly on their own beliefs. Including myself.
I listened to Linn/Naim systems and they sounded ok, but much less so than full Quad systems I thought. The electrostatic panels do something really special no dynamic speaker can approach.
I enjoy playing records on various turntables, from a Beogram 4000 (Soundsmith cart) to a DD Technics!
They all sound not that different... but the cartridges do have very different characters. My favourites these days are AT’s with ML stylii.
I listen through very, very revealing electronics and speakers, transistor or valve.
I also enjoy full top-of-the-range B&O vintage systems.
You know what? In the end I find CD more trouble-free. I have many different players and they all sound much the same, i.e. correct, with no special sonic signatures. What a relief - or is it?
russel
./_dazed_and_confused
I think all turntables run in circles, apart from say Amstrad ones
FIFY, talk BS loudly, confidently and often and pay your sales force to do the same.
linnfomaniac83
I bet you can’t wheelie a unicycle!
I do firmly believe that the arm is critical, having tried five arms on the same deck, I’ve somewhat experience of this... but them switching the same arm/cartridge between two different LP12s (one pre circus/Hercules PSU and one Cirkus/Keel/Lingo 2) they also were significantly, both very enjoyable but with the latter being much more refined and deeper sounding (dimensionally).
linnfomaniac83
I bet you can’t wheelie a unicycle!
I’d like to bet that the electronics and speakers I’ve used are more revealing than what the guy in the video is using which should make it easier to pick between them... I’d have fully expected the SL1200 to stand out head and shoulders above the rest... although I can’t comment on the Fluance deck as they’re not available in the U.K., I can comment on that Denon, a friend had one briefly, it was a bit pants and was totally seen off by my Rega RP1, it suffered really badly from feedback and he brought it round to see if the problem would arise in my setup... it did. He ultimately splashed bought a new Planar 3 with an Elys 2 and hasn’t looked back. His system otherwise comprises of an Arcam Alpha 8r amp and Monitor Audio Silver (something or other) bookshelf speakers, the difference is very obvious on that setup too.
I suppose if you were a neophyte, there's some truth to "all TTs sound the same..."
Knowing better, and being fussier, I believe that everything in the audio set up matters. Not just source-first, but the amps, the speakers, the supports, the cables, and of course the room. If the rest of the set up is not up to it, then perhaps you can't hear any difference between the TTs...
Knowing better, and being fussier, I believe that everything in the audio set up matters. Not just source-first, but the amps, the speakers, the supports, the cables, and of course the room. If the rest of the set up is not up to it, then perhaps you can't hear any difference between the TTs...
After 50 years of dicking about with hifi I have my own conclusions about what makes a difference.
Record players are very sensitive and can pick up all sorts of spurious vibration so not only are the deck and arm important but also their interaction. Where they are located makes a difference too.
Cartridges have a bigger influence on frequency response and distortion but the mechanical bits add more or less spurious extras, some of which I like.
IME it would take a pretty shite design of cable, DAC or preamp to make a difference but power amps and speakers again make a difference.
I shan't be changing anything now because I don't have the same level of disposal income as I had before I retired and nothing about my current system even remotely reduces my enjoyment of listening to music on it.
Record players are very sensitive and can pick up all sorts of spurious vibration so not only are the deck and arm important but also their interaction. Where they are located makes a difference too.
Cartridges have a bigger influence on frequency response and distortion but the mechanical bits add more or less spurious extras, some of which I like.
IME it would take a pretty shite design of cable, DAC or preamp to make a difference but power amps and speakers again make a difference.
I shan't be changing anything now because I don't have the same level of disposal income as I had before I retired and nothing about my current system even remotely reduces my enjoyment of listening to music on it.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
I was always, ahem, somewhat surprised to read the generous Stereophile ratings of the LP12. I didn’t know any better when I was young but when I heard alternatives it popped the bubble of unquestioning love for me. It’s only now after theyve turned it into a different machine that it can compete with references (and they want you to sell an organ for it).
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
How does the relationship between the mechanical design of the arm and cartridge electrical loading act to affect the sound?