advertisement


All purpose football thread 2023/24 Season

webster said:
If clubs are going to start crying over perceived errors by refs and VAR then we might as well all pack up.
I hope to goodness the PGMOL don't come out with anything even vaguely resembling an apology.
This nonsense needs shutting down before it becomes the norm.
Click to expand...
How then do you apply pressure for change and improvement?

VAR is supposed to eliminate errors and unfairness, not introduce them.
 
Weekender said:
As I've already said:
The ball may or may not have been out. There's no conclusive proof. How do you suggest VAR rule on that? They can't. They stay with the onfield decision.
The challenge involving Gabriel was not thought to be a clear and obvious foul by VAR. They stay with the onfield decision.
Click to expand...
At the very least I'd invite the ref to take another look at the monitor.

Otherwise, in the absence of a picture of a tiny slither of a ball overhanging the line ( because that's all it would be if anything) I would take the view that the ball looked a lot more out than in. Don't get too caught up in the absence of ' conclusive' proof. After all VAR have effectively judged the ball to be ' conclusively' in, and there is no proof of that.

Here's a little thought experiment. Just imagine a period of the game played parallel to the goal and bylines at the same distance the ball was in the images we saw. Imagine the ball being passed at this distance from one goal post to another at the opposite end of the pitch. How long would it take for the ref or lino to blow up for the ball being out of play? How odd would it be?

Incidentally you referred to Martin keown admitting uncertainty about the position of the ball, I've just watched match of the day and noticed he was unequivocal about the challenge being an obvious foul. I guess you forgot to mention that bit?
 
roman said:
At the very least I'd invite the ref to take another look at the monitor.

Otherwise, in the absence of a picture of a tiny slither of a ball overhanging the line ( because that's all it would be if anything) I would take the view that the ball looked a lot more out than in. Don't get too caught up in the absence of ' conclusive' proof. After all VAR have effectively judged the ball to be ' conclusively' in, and there is no proof of that.

Here's a little thought experiment. Just imagine a period of the game played parallel to the goal and bylines at the same distance the ball was in the images we saw. Imagine the ball being passed at this distance from one goal post to another at the opposite end of the pitch. How long would it take for the ref or lino to blow up for the ball being out of play? How odd would it be?

Incidentally you referred to Martin keown admitting uncertainty about the position of the ball, I've just watched match of the day and noticed he was unequivocal about the challenge being an obvious foul. I guess you forgot to mention that bit?
Click to expand...
That's not how VAR works - the Ref is invited to the monitor if the VAR staff think there has been an onfield error. They could not conclude that from the images available re the ball in/out of play.
VAR have NOT concluded the ball was conclusively in or out. VAR were unable to make either decision based on the images available!
So, once again, I reiterate that they can only stay with the onfield decision!
Martin Keown is entitled to his opinion...
 
Weekender said:
That's not how VAR works - the Ref is invited to the monitor if the VAR staff think there has been an onfield error. They could not conclude that from the images available re the ball in/out of play.
Martin Keown is entitled to his opinion...
Click to expand...
I know all of that, but these are not laws of nature, it's all made up.

Rather like the farce in the spurs Liverpool game where an operative alerted the officials to their cock up but they said nothing could be done because the game had resumed. It's bollocks. Just make the right call. It's usually pretty obvious what that means.
 
I didn't think that there was a foul on the defender - I thought he threw himself forward, kicking his legs in the air. I think that there is definitely an argument to say that the ball may have gone out but it was so tight that it couldn't be proven. I don't really know what the debate is about it being offside.

I pointed out going into the derby that my only concern as a City fan was the performance of the referee and VAR at Old Trafford. The standard of refereeing has been dire this year, for many clubs. I have to agree with you, @roman. It is also true that Newcastle are a physically dominant side and can be aggressive in their approach. Howe and his team have done a superb job though and they are a danger to everyone this year. There is no doubt that Guimaraes should have gone, yesterday, but I also thought that to be true of Havertz, who was dangerously out of control with his challenge and then delivered an undoubted yellow-card challenge soon after; he was a lucky boy indeed.

The standards now are so, so high and the points needed to win the league have seen records broken, or near to that, in a number of seasons. It creates an intensity around winning that is insanely high and the pressure of victory is immense.

Congratulations to Luton, today, who were very pacy and carried out their gameplan well, just missing out on the three points. Liverpool remain porous in defence, if incredibly threatening up front.
 
oldius said:
I didn't think that there was a foul on the defender - I thought he threw himself forward, kicking his legs in the air. I think that there is definitely an argument to say that the ball may have gone out but it was so tight that it couldn't be proven. I don't really know what the debate is about it being offside.

I pointed out going into the derby that my only concern as a City fan was the performance of the referee and VAR at Old Trafford. The standard of refereeing has been dire this year, for many clubs. I have to agree with you, @roman. It is also true that Newcastle are a physically dominant side and can be aggressive in their approach. Howe and his team have done a superb job though and they are a danger to everyone this year. There is no doubt that Guimaraes should have gone, yesterday, but I also thought that to be true of Havertz, who was dangerously out of control with his challenge and then delivered an undoubted yellow-card challenge soon after; he was a lucky boy indeed.

The standards now are so, so high and the points needed to win the league have seen records broken, or near to that, in a number of seasons. It creates an intensity around winning that is insanely high and the pressure of victory is immense.

Congratulations to Luton, today, who were very pacy and carried out their gameplan well, just missing out on the three points. Liverpool remain porous in defence, if incredibly threatening up front.
Click to expand...
 
roman said:
Terrible article.

Of course there is something broken. I'm sure every manager will be quirky nodding along with what he said.

It's worth noting arteta rarely has these outbursts. He'd the first to acknowledge shortcomings in his team and I'm sure he's doing that now but VAR is a mess.

Every image of the ball beyond the line that they have released, that you and I have seen, suggests the ball was out. There is no Hawkeye definitively proving it was in. Why not? They've had years to get this right.

It might have been worth calling the ref to the screen for a second look, though I don't have much faith in him.

Meanwhile you can skip that part and go to a clear foul to disallow the goal, but then again it's no surprise when an official and a system that had earlier allowed Bruno Guimaraes to forearm smash a player because it was his forearm and not an elbow, they might also overlook something so blatant.

Instead let's all concentrate on the internal recruitment decisions and fitness and training methods of a club and ignore the farcical and damaging officiating methods superimposed on the sport.
Click to expand...
I was at the game last night, don't support either team so don't have an axe to grind.

In real time the trajectory of the ball across the ground didn't suggest that it was going to be out by the time Willock struck it. I wasn't surprised it was found to be in.

The keeper's poor position gave the defender too much to do, he could have stood his ground or gone for the ball; he ended up doing, what any sane person does with Joelinton bearing down on them, neither. In real time it never occurred to me that it was a foul, just desire winning out over confusion. My first thought was that the VAR was for handball the one thing they didn't check.

My line of sight was the same as the referee although I'm a little higher;). It is my understanding that VAR's job is to help out where it is clear that the referee has missed something he can't see. He would have seen it all.
 
oldius said:
I didn't think that there was a foul on the defender - I thought he threw himself forward, kicking his legs in the air. I think that there is definitely an argument to say that the ball may have gone out but it was so tight that it couldn't be proven. I don't really know what the debate is about it being offside.

I pointed out going into the derby that my only concern as a City fan was the performance of the referee and VAR at Old Trafford. The standard of refereeing has been dire this year, for many clubs. I have to agree with you, @roman. It is also true that Newcastle are a physically dominant side and can be aggressive in their approach. Howe and his team have done a superb job though and they are a danger to everyone this year. There is no doubt that Guimaraes should have gone, yesterday, but I also thought that to be true of Havertz, who was dangerously out of control with his challenge and then delivered an undoubted yellow-card challenge soon after; he was a lucky boy indeed.

The standards now are so, so high and the points needed to win the league have seen records broken, or near to that, in a number of seasons. It creates an intensity around winning that is insanely high and the pressure of victory is immense.

Congratulations to Luton, today, who were very pacy and carried out their gameplan well, just missing out on the three points. Liverpool remain porous in defence, if incredibly threatening up front.
Click to expand...
I thought that Gabriel had two hands on his upper back pushing him forward and down, preventing him from jumping and challenging for the ball. If he kicked out his legs I view that as secondary. It's a commonplace way of communicating a foul to a ref and is different to just throwing oneself to the floor without cause.

Havertz could well have gone but then I look back to arsenal's game with city where I thought kovacic did his best to get two reds in a few minutes but got away with I think just one yellow. On that occasion I thought the ref and VAR ducked a difficult decision and that's a large part of the problem massive inconsistency between officials but even within a game perhaps depending on game state or who knows what.

Eddie Howe is doing well and Newcastle are a formidable team, I just feel they could aim higher, I also sense a sort of licence is given to teams who decide on the most physical style as if they have a right to play in a way that other teams wouldn't be permitted.

Having at one time been such a team ( keown viera etc) arsenal changed and came to be seen as a soft touch who didn't like it up 'em and some teams got away with rather a lot. I think injuries to Eduardo, Diaby and Ramsey were no coincidence but instead of policing some pretty outrageous play it was easier to victim blame.

I'd hate to see it happen again. I think the worst of those sort of challenges are better policed and punished these days ( maybe one of the pluses of VAR) but it remains inconsistent.
 
roman said:
I thought that Gabriel had two hands on his upper back pushing him forward and down, preventing him from jumping and challenging for the ball. If he kicked out his legs I view that as secondary. It's a commonplace way of communicating a foul to a ref and is different to just throwing oneself to the floor without cause.

Havertz could well have gone but then I look back to arsenal's game with city where I thought kovacic did his best to get two reds in a few minutes but got away with I think just one yellow. On that occasion I thought the ref and VAR ducked a difficult decision and that's a large part of the problem massive inconsistency between officials but even within a game perhaps depending on game state or who knows what.

Eddie Howe is doing well and Newcastle are a formidable team, I just feel they could aim higher, I also sense a sort of licence is given to teams who decide on the most physical style as if they have a right to play in a way that other teams wouldn't be permitted.

Having at one time been such a team ( keown viera etc) arsenal changed and came to be seen as a soft touch who didn't like it up 'em and some teams got away with rather a lot. I think injuries to Eduardo, Diaby and Ramsey were no coincidence but instead of policing some pretty outrageous play it was easier to victim blame.

I'd hate to see it happen again. I think the worst of those sort of challenges are better policed and punished these days ( maybe one of the pluses of VAR) but it remains inconsistent.
Click to expand...
I'd have had no complaints if Kovacic would have gone in that game: he was an idiot who lost it. I felt Havertz was the same, yesterday.
I enjoy watching Arsenal, and they are a clearly talented team. I want them to do well for Arteta, Zinchenko and Gabby, but I felt Gabriel dived, and got what he deserved. I suppose the difference in our views reflects the difficulty that the VAR room has - too many players are trained to con the referee as soon as they are in a little bit of difficulty, as Gabriel was. No team is free of this, including my own.
 
oldius said:
I'd have had no complaints if Kovacic would have gone in that game: he was an idiot who lost it. I felt Havertz was the same, yesterday.
I enjoy watching Arsenal, and they are a clearly talented team. I want them to do well for Arteta, Zinchenko and Gabby, but I felt Gabriel dived, and got what he deserved. I suppose the difference in our views reflects the difficulty that the VAR room has - too many players are trained to con the referee as soon as they are in a little bit of difficulty, as Gabriel was. No team is free of this, including my own.
Click to expand...
imgur.io

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.
imgur.io imgur.io

A lot of handballs are given because having your arms in the air, contrary to what some refs and pundits say, is natural. It's where you expect them to be. Look at Gordon's arms in the same shot.

I think jolintons arms are in this position because he is both leaning on Gabriel to hold him down and to help himself jump. Surely a foul.
 
More VAR drama!
Romero got the ball but also looked like a deliberate attempt to injure the opponent with his follow through.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top