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Ali Express 'clone' amps...great stuff!!

At the risk of appearing contrarian, does anyone else enjoy the excellent Dr John Cheap Tube Audio blog?

Aside from some astonishing photos of friends rigs and listening rooms in HK he seems to specialise in investigating budget chi-fi components, often tube-y and often obscure/unusual.

Doctorjohn Cheaptubeaudio: Audio Reviews and More

Cheaptubeaudio has had a long history of advocating reasonably priced but excellent tube gears, particularly Singled-Ended Triodes. This Blog however covers a lot more than SET, and is not exclusively tube-related. Cheaptubeaudio prioritizes coverage of unusual and rare gears, particularly...
cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com cheaptubeaudio.blogspot.com
 
Hello everyone!
This is my first post here and I registered to participate in this topic because I was looking for experiences with this cloned amp. Thank you, rontoolsie.

I have much more confidence in CHIFI products than American and European products based on my successful experiences for what I pay. I think people greatly underestimate the Chinese as if they are just a bunch of thieves who lack creativity (in my belief, at least as a buyer, a thief is someone who sells you a product worth 100 for 1000 and sometimes Up to 10,000) but the Chinese in particular in the “HIFI” field is more inward-looking and they don’t make much effort to market abroad, so you don’t find them as highly appreciated. Big brands allocate more budget to marketing than development.

I have a floorstanding speaker from a Chinese brand called PAIYON. They offer products that are clones or, let's say, an update and development of the ideas of famous old products, for example ATC and Harbeth, and they offer them with very good sound and a low price.
I have a P81 model, it is on the same level as the Triangle Signature Delta, and they have a higher end P82 model, I can't imagine how good it is for the money.

Anyway, after the positive responses from rontoolsie, I am close to pressing the trigger to buy, but if it is possible to take a clearer quality photo of the internal components of the Monoblock, it would be really helpful for me.
 
JAFHIFI said:
I have much more confidence in CHIFI products than American and European products based on my successful experiences for what I pay. I think people greatly underestimate the Chinese as if they are just a bunch of thieves who lack creativity (in my belief, at least as a buyer, a thief is someone who sells you a product worth 100 for 1000 and sometimes Up to 10,000) but the Chinese in particular in the “HIFI” field is more inward-looking and they don’t make much effort to market abroad, so you don’t find them as highly appreciated. Big brands allocate more budget to marketing than development.

I have a floorstanding speaker from a Chinese brand called PAIYON. They offer products that are clones or, let's say, an update and development of the ideas of famous old products, for example ATC and Harbeth, and they offer them with very good sound and a low price.
I have a P81 model, it is on the same level as the Triangle Signature Delta, and they have a higher end P82 model, I can't imagine how good it is for the money.
Click to expand...
Hi, and welcome. While I take your points, I've bolded a couple of bits which struck me as interesting:

The first suggests that the big brands don't spend much on (product) development, implying the bulk of the 'costs' of a product (outside the actual manufacturing costs) are marketing spend. In the context of what you wrote, that reads as a criticism.

The second suggests that ChiFi brands are good value because they rely, for the most part, on other people's designs. That suggests they spend very little indeed on product development. In the context of what you wrote, that reads as approval.

These two positions feel, to me, to be contradictory. I realise that it's more nuanced than that, because ChiFi is (usually) cheaper, but it still seems, at least to some extent, to be an inconsistent position to hold.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Hi, and welcome. While I take your points, I've bolded a couple of bits which struck me as interesting:

The first suggests that the big brands don't spend much on (product) development, implying the bulk of the 'costs' of a product (outside the actual manufacturing costs) are marketing spend. In the context of what you wrote, that reads as a criticism.

The second suggests that ChiFi brands are good value because they rely, for the most part, on other people's designs. That suggests they spend very little indeed on product development. In the context of what you wrote, that reads as approval.

These two positions feel, to me, to be contradictory. I realise that it's more nuanced than that, because ChiFi is (usually) cheaper, but it still seems, at least to some extent, to be an inconsistent position to hold.
Click to expand...
Though if a British company takes a sixty year old valve amp design and has it manufactured in China using nice components no one seems to mind.
 
Is the design IP of said company? Having say Quad (just picking an easy reference) manufacture their own (old) Quad II design in china and sell them, is very different to ‘Super Wang Audio Gear’ building and selling Quad II style/clone amplifiers made in china through eBay.

One situation is legitimate cheap manufacturing the other is questionable IP theft.

China can turn out some VERY impressive engineering, very little of it leaves their mainland.
 
JAFHIFI said:
Anyway, after the positive responses from rontoolsie, I am close to pressing the trigger to buy, but if it is possible to take a clearer quality photo of the internal components of the Monoblock, it would be really helpful for me.
Click to expand...
I will pop the lids soon and snap a few pics!
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Hi, and welcome. While I take your points, I've bolded a couple of bits which struck me as interesting:

The first suggests that the big brands don't spend much on (product) development, implying the bulk of the 'costs' of a product (outside the actual manufacturing costs) are marketing spend. In the context of what you wrote, that reads as a criticism.

The second suggests that ChiFi brands are good value because they rely, for the most part, on other people's designs. That suggests they spend very little indeed on product development. In the context of what you wrote, that reads as approval.

These two positions feel, to me, to be contradictory. I realise that it's more nuanced than that, because ChiFi is (usually) cheaper, but it still seems, at least to some extent, to be an inconsistent position to hold.
Click to expand...

Hi Steve, to clarify this, we must ask: Do the biggest brands really not clone any previous idea, develop it, and market it in another way of their own?

Cloning is the basis of development and differs from copying and scamming, “cheap quality products that steal the appearance of a famous brand and sell it at the original price as if it is that original brand.”

For example, Apple is one of the companies that relies most on marketing, such as their claim that the iPhone is the first phone to offer MultiTouch, but in fact they cloned the idea from the LG Prada phone. They also gave marketing names such as Retina screen and Super Retina, which is a name that has no meaning. It is just an AMOLED screen from the Samsung factory that they buy. And many more.

In other words, this AMP or my speakers do not copy the original product in terms of internal components in a poor way, but rather cloning the general idea of a product and they provide you with a very good sound in their own way. “It may be in some cases better than the old product cloned from it” and at a low price. Do you think this thing happened easily and without the creativity, development and quality of its components?

ChiFi are creative in development, but they are lazy and very stingy in marketing. They rely on copying a big brand name to market their work, which gives them a general stereotype that their products are cheap, imitative, fraudulent, and lack quality and safety.
 
paulfromcamden said:
Though if a British company takes a sixty year old valve amp design and has it manufactured in China using nice components no one seems to mind.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this is exactly what happens. Everyone is manufactured in China and depends on branding and marketing.
There is a big brand in China called “ShengYa.” It has been around since the 90s. It has a partner in Germany under the name Vincent, and the price difference between the products between the Chinese and German brand is astonishing because it is European.
 
JAFHIFI said:
In other words, this AMP or my speakers do not copy the original product in terms of internal components in a poor way, but rather cloning the general idea of a product and they provide you with a very good sound in their own way. “It may be in some cases better than the old product cloned from it” and at a low price. Do you think this thing happened easily and without the creativity, development and quality of its components?
Click to expand...

As I mentioned earlier, this amp uses (obsolete) Sanken bipolar transistors. As far as I am aware all Goldmund amps use(d) lateral mosfets in a tweaked version of the “Hitachi “ circuit.

So we have the bizarre situation where it is pretending to be clone and is nothing of the sort.

I suppose that just makes it a fake!
 
S-Man said:
As I mentioned earlier, this amp uses (obsolete) Sanken bipolar transistors. As far as I am aware all Goldmund amps use(d) lateral mosfets in a tweaked version of the “Hitachi “ circuit.

So we have the bizarre situation where it is pretending to be clone and is nothing of the sort.

I suppose that just makes it a fake!
Click to expand...

Certainly the cloning of the components will not be identical at this price, but the sound, or let's say the character of the sound, did they make it close to the original?

Yes, I may agree with you. In fact, I wonder why some ChiFi continue to market their products under expensive brand names. This degrades their wonderful work and some will see it as just a “fake” no matter how good it sounds in the price range.
 
So today, by popular request...I popped the lids of the 2 monoblocks AliExpress amps.
They looked identical (i.e. very well built) on the insides. I probably will at some point hard solder some of the ribbon connections. And probably make a few relatively low-cost 'tweak upgrades' that could not be incorporated at the selling price. Coupling caps for instance. I could easily spend $500 on improving them, and also improving the ultimate performance.

The sound continues to mature and improve. I have been sufficiently inspired to address some cabling improvements, and the amps very transparently revealed their benefits. They somehow incorporate the slam and grunt of linear power supplied class A/AB power amps with the near-holographics of tube power amps, but with the advantages of both, and the disadvantages of neither.

These amps offer in my almost 50+ years experience a superlative value for money, punching well above amplifers 5-10x their cost.

So you haters...keep on buying 'UK' brands that are made in China at the same factories, but priced accordingly to reflect brand name, dealers, distributors and sheer snob appeal.

At some point, I may give a post-tweak follow up. Maybe.



Anyway...here is the AliPRON!!!

AliAmp1.jpg


AliAmp2.jpg


AliAmp3.jpg


AliAmp4.jpg


AliAmp5.jpg


AliAmp6.jpg


AliAmp7.jpg





AliAmp8.jpg


AliAmp9.jpg
 
S-Man said:
As I mentioned earlier, this amp uses (obsolete) Sanken bipolar transistors. As far as I am aware all Goldmund amps use(d) lateral mosfets in a tweaked version of the “Hitachi “ circuit.

So we have the bizarre situation where it is pretending to be clone and is nothing of the sort.

I suppose that just makes it a fake!
Click to expand...
Yes, but the highly regarded Naim 'Chrome bumper' power amps used rebranded Sankens too.
In my limited experience, MOSFETs and JFETs may have technical advantages, but never quite sounded 'right'.
 
The nearest I've gone to a clone is the Eversolo - rather Hi-Fi Rose-ish, apart from the app works. As for marketing, Chinese dac and streamer manufacturers don't need to do any, they just send the stuff to Amir and he does it for them.

Ron, I don't open up amps very often so what's your verdict? Looks kinda average to me.
 
Most Chinese hifi manufacturers have little interest in the concept of branding beyond putting a name on the box, and sometimes not even this!

But clearly there's a huge Asian market of rich and discerning consumers plus a pool of talented engineers, it would be most surprising if at least some Chinese hifi wasn't absolutely excellent.

I do think copying an iconic look / model name etc is pretty crass, personally I wouldn't buy that.
 
The only issue I have with Chinese hi-fi equipment is that it can be an issue getting it fixed if something goes wrong. I've got a Chinese valve CD player (can't recall the make at the moment) that sounded lovely until it packed in but doesn't look like it's fixable as the places I've tried regarding diagnostics and repair couldn't look at it.

On the other hand my lovely sounding Audio Note valve amp blows up regularly, but at least I can (and have) returned it to Audio Note to get fixed. It is currently languishing up my loft in disgrace again (having blown up again, about a year after being fixed the last time) along with various other broken stuff including a few non-fixable Chinese separates though.
 
SteveG said:
The only issue I have with Chinese hi-fi equipment is that it can be an issue getting it fixed if something goes wrong. I've got a Chinese valve CD player (can't recall the make at the moment) that sounded lovely until it packed in but doesn't look like it's fixable as the places I've tried regarding diagnostics and repair couldn't look at it.

On the other hand my lovely sounding Audio Note valve amp blows up regularly, but at least I can (and have) returned it to Audio Note to get fixed. It is currently languishing up my loft in disgrace again (having blown up again, about a year after being fixed the last time) along with various other broken stuff including a few non-fixable Chinese separates though.
Click to expand...
Let me give you an alternative viewpoint.
Say I purchased an Audio Research preamp new.... around $10,000.
I'm certain that the build and performance is to a high standard, and probably I will have some sort of demo before buying it.

But the second I take it out of the showroom, it has depreciated $1500 at LEAST.
And $1500 can buy an excellent Chinese preamp (or maybe even three of them).

Ok, say I want to buy the Audio Research preamp used for 'only' $6500.
Then something goes wrong. There is a SIX MONTH waiting list at AR for non-warranty repairs, and the minimum cost is $500, and it goes up really quickly. Is this really a superior to buying a lovely sounding $500 Chinese preamp that has no local warranty service??

With rare exceptions, all high end interconnects/speaker wires are contract made in China at the very same factories that turn out their own brand wires as well. And I can say from experience that some of the $100 Chinese interconnects are at LEAST as good as several of the $1000+ interconnects I have owned, or used on long term.

Conventional retail chains are now becoming the exception rather than the norm.

I will do an extended listening session again this weekend, and maybe take them over to a friends to compare with his 3-4 available power amps, all of which cost equal or more than these monoblocks.
 
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