ahead of their time? or just plain out there?

[kasperhauser]

After all the talk about krautrock here, I picked up Amon Düül II's Phallus Dei when I ran across it yesterday in a used cd store. It's the one with 4 previously unreleased cuts at the end. Put it on and listen - interesting from the start. Aside from the frantic German yowling, I listen on and I'm enjoying it a lot. Some great riffs, and I like the way the songs move and shift through a number of "movements". And GREAT basslines. So as I listen I'm thinking "these guys listened to a lot of Black Sabbath". Check the fine print on the cover - originally released in 1969!!! Ok, so I had no clue. I guess I hadn't been reading posts here very carefully; I had it in my head they were more or less contemporary.

So, rather than being influenced, I suspect they influenced a lot of music. It's like they were post-rock 30+ years early. Anyone know of other artists who have listed this band among their influences? I wouldn't be surprised at all if Geezer Butler from Sabbath listened to them.

Currently on the lookout for more. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Tony L]

So, rather than being influenced, I suspect they influenced a lot of music. It's like they were post-rock 30+ years early.

IMHO a staggering amount of modern music is influenced by Krautrock, either first or second hand. Bands like Amon Düül II, Neu!, Can, Faust, Ash Ra Temple, Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk have all left a huge mark. Neu! are probably the ones whose sound represents the most obvious link to post-rock – Neu! 1 has it all, it moves from Stereolab to Magazine to Martin Hannett period Factory yet dates from 71! It sounds like absolutely nothing that preceded it, and at the time must have sounded like it was from another planet. Neu!’s later album ‘75’ and spin-off band La Dusseldorf had their sound fully assimilated by Bowie and Eno for Low and Heroes (a fact Bowie acknowledges), though these late period Krautrock gems still sound way fresher and more imaginative.

Amon Düül IIs masterwork Yeti (you NEED this album!) has a track called Archangel Thunderbird that I could easily convince people was from PIL’s first album, yet it was recorded in 1970, the rest is so incredibly out there that the world hasn’t caught up to it yet! This is a utterly phenomenal album, Phallus Dei was the perfect introduction for the full-on double LP assault that was to come next!

Likewise the influence of Can and Faust is everywhere, Can had the best rock drummer bar none and his beats crop up everywhere from The Fall to hardcore breakbeat D&B. Their deliberate deconstruction of the whole rock / pop form has left its mark too, neither band paid any attention whatsoever to the generic verse chorus etc song structure and helped break down many barriers. Kraftwerks influence with electronics is even acknowledged by the average Joe Bloggs in the street their impact was so great. They pretty much created the whole dance and rap scene with the beats and bleeps prevalent on their later 70s output, many early rappers did their thing over looped beats of Trans Europe Express.

The fact that this music was so important and so critical to the development of modern music makes it unforgivable that so much is still unobtainable. It annoys me so much to see various stock and predictable UK and US titles remastered for the sixth or seventh time when say Ash Ra Temple’s masterpieces can only be found as dubious vinyl transfers on ‘semi official’ labels. These bands should all be household names.

Tony.

 

[Mullardman]

Interesting thread this! My musical knowledge is limited more to the 50's /60's and the bands you mention are just names to me, but maybe I heard them somewhere along the way, because I spent the 70's, 80's and 90's thinking " I've heard this before.. this is not new....". A friend lent me the Durutti Column tape on Fact 1. Apart fom the fact that it had a sandpaper track list packaged alongside the cassette (Do wonders for yer Nak, that will!), it was IMHO utter pretentious shite. And I'd heard it all before. As we say in these here parts. 'There's Nowt New Under't Sun, Son'.

 

[Kit Taylor]

Ever thought about starting your own audiophool kraut reissue label Tony?

 

[Tony L]

Ever thought about starting your own audiophool kraut reissue label Tony?

I wouldn’t know where to start, let alone be able to come up with any capital!

Another problem is that so many of these bands were on record labels such as Ohr, Brain Metronome and in the UK Liberty / United Artists, all of which no longer exist, so where the master tapes are is anyone’s guess – the sharper bands will have taken them home, but I bet some have gone missing or become damaged over the years. I get the impression that the French reissue label Spalax is legitimate, their reissue program is very comprehensive, but some titles definitely sound like vinyl transfers, which probably implies the master is long gone – a prime example being Ash Ra Temple’s phenomenal debut LP. Others in their range seem fine, I have two of their Cosmic Jokers reissues on vinyl and they seem ok. The Spalax discography can be found
here. There is some truly remarkable music in that lot!

Tony.

 

[joel]

Originally posted by Mullardman
A friend lent me the Durutti Column tape on Fact 1. Apart fom the fact that it had a sandpaper track list packaged alongside the cassette (Do wonders for yer Nak, that will!), it was IMHO utter pretentious shite. And I'd heard it all before. As we say in these here parts. 'There's Nowt New Under't Sun, Son'.

How true, then again, rock is not and *never* has been about originality (Should I duck for cover ) . From its inception it has been a kind of post-modernist repackaging of black American music by white Americans, rerepackaged by Brits and then re-exported, re-imported and finallly resampled by the likes of Andre 3000. Lack of originality hardly seems to be a fatal sin under those circumstances.
FWIW, I really like the Duritti Column album that Tony sent me. It has a kind of wannabee, but slightly leaden afrobeat. It's much less slick, of course, but very endearing in a Macclesfield meets Lagos kind of way, and that flange geetar sound makes me all nostalgic for 1981.

 

[Mullardman]

Originally posted by joel
and that flange geetar sound makes me all nostalgic for 1981. [/B]

I suppose that's part of the issue. We can all forgive almost anything if it happened in our 'formative' years. (I am making some MASSIVE assumptions about your age here!) Eg, I can now find some considerable merit in the 60's singles output of the Troggs, whereas at the time, they were a joke. They seem to have produced a couple of classics (Wild Thing, Love is All Around, Night of the Long Grass) almost by default.

And to highlight the power of personal/cultural experience on perceptions of music, that flange guitar sound to me sounded amateurish,..and not in an ironic way. Maybe I was too close, one of the songs on that DC album was dedicated to my mates wife, but not by me or him.

 

[Mullardman]

On further reflection (well, it is 2:00am, and I have been out to the pub), your point about originality is totally correct. So, if we can't use just originality as a measure (and I don't think we should), then we can only use execution/virtuosity, which is why I am increasingly drawn to those who can really play and/or sing, in whatever genre, as opposed to the ground breaking but can't play, mob. I think.... ish

 

[Tony L]

On further reflection (well, it is 2:00am, and I have been out to the pub), your point about originality is totally correct. So, if we can't use just originality as a measure (and I don't think we should), then we can only use execution/virtuosity, which is why I am increasingly drawn to those who can really play and/or sing, in whatever genre, as opposed to the ground breaking but can't play, mob. I think.... ish

I’m at the other extreme, probably because I grew up through the punk / new-wave / DIY ethic thing. The first couple of Durutti Column albums are IMHO remarkably beautiful and original albums, they are so truly unique in their sound that I consider Vini to be one of the few people who have genuinely made the Strat their own. With a Strat, a Roland Space Echo and incredibly sparse usage of live drumming or drum machine rhythms he created something totally unlike anything that had existed before. Virtuosity has no value on its own, I have no interest whatsoever in music that simply polishes what previously existed. A genuinely original idea is worth more than any amount of slick Fender-bending.

The late 70s / early 80s was IMHO one of the most important times in musical history as it reclaimed popular music as a genuine folk-tool. The whole ‘Here are three chords, now form a band’ thing got music back where it belonged, i.e. with real people who had real things to say, not highly trained professional ‘entertainers’ recycling established and tired ideas with ever more gloss. Albums from bands like Wire, Gang of Four, Young Marble Giants, Slits, Joy Division and Durutti Column etc stand out today as truly beautiful minimalistic icons in stark contrast to the slick ‘professional’ identikit mush that tends to dominate the music scene.

Tony.

 

[RickyC6]

Originally posted by Tony L
Albums from bands like Wire, Gang of Four, Young Marble Giants, Slits, Joy Division and Duritti Column etc stand out today as truly beautiful minimalistic icons in stark contrast to the slick ‘professional’ identikit mush that tends to dominate the music scene.
Tony.

100% agree with you.........The Slits had not one iota of "musical expertise" but their sessions for John Peel were hugely influential and inspiring.......and bloody scary!.

Rich

 

[joel]

Originally posted by Tony L
I’m at the other extreme, probably because I grew up through the punk / new-wave / DIY ethic thing. The first couple of Durutti Column albums are IMHO remarkably beautiful and original albums, they are so truly unique in their sound that I consider Vini to be one of the few people who have genuinely made the Strat their own. With a Strat, a Roland Space Echo and incredibly sparse usage of live drumming or drum machine rhythms he created something totally unlike anything that had existed before.

I think he also had a Roland flange, Tony! Or maybe the BOSS echo had a flange button. I honestly don't remember. I would have sworn they were two different things. The space echo was kind of cool.
I tend to agree about musicianship for its own sake, and one of the things I really appreciate with the DC album is the lack of irony. It's very refreshing.
I suspect Vini Reilly was listening to afrobeat and juju and that got refracted into something new and rather beautiful in his music. Not a bad thing at all.

 

[sideshowbob]

We musn't, of course, forget Vini's first group, Ed Banger and the Nosebleeds.

On second thoughts, we must.

The first two DC albums really did stand out at the time. I think they've aged pretty well, unlike Vini, it must be said, who looks more and more skeletal.

-- Ian

 

[Tony L]

I think he also had a Roland flange, Tony!

I suspect it was just the posh ‘Chorus Echo’ variant of the Space Echo. It was certainly one of the big Roland tape based units as I’ve watched him use it live. I recall Vini having a very pure sound live, just clean Strat and this Roland Echo. The times I saw him play (a few times round the first couple of albums) he didn’t seem to have a load of pedals or anything flash, just the Roland and his guitar. He always spent quite a bit of time fiddling with it between songs.

Vini could actually play the songs on LC that feature him on both guitar and electric piano live, he alternated his right hand between strumming the guitar and plonking out the keyboard chords, both had sufficient delay that there were no gaps. I’ve actually got some photos I took of one of these gigs somewhere, but God knows where…

Tony.

 

[Mullardman]

Hmmmm. So I'm outvoted then? I promise if I ever get the chance, I'll listen to DC again, but ten listens first time round didn't impress me.

 

[Paul L]

You're not outvoted entirely Mullardman, I must confess I don't know DC but the whole Krautrock/punk/new wave thing which I tend to think of as 3 chords, attitude and acne always left me cold and I haven't changed.

I also fall into the camp of liking people who can sing and play in (hopefully) most genres whether rock, heavy rock, singer-songwriter, country, bluegrass, folk, light jazz, pop, soul and of course classical. Couldn't give a damn if it's seen as polished and unoriginal. I also like, theatre, drama, changing emotions and melody in my music too (which probably accounts for my choices and ) which to me are mutually exclusive from the K/P/NW genres. But others obviously hear differently and I can't argue with that.

Paul

 

[kasperhauser]

Ok, so I'm looking for Yeti on cd now, and I'm finding a French release (on the Mantra label) and a remastered Cherrrrmann release with an additional (?) track (on the Gamma label).

Advice?

 

[Tony L]

Ok, so I'm looking for Yeti on cd now, and I'm finding a French release (on the Mantra label) and a remastered Cherrrrmann release with an additional (?) track (on the Gamma label).

I’ve never heard of the Gamma release, I believe there is a recent remaster on Repertoire, but I have no idea of it’s quality. One thing that rings alarm bells is the fact some issues claim to have bonus tracks, I don’t understand how this is possible unless they are double CDs as Yeti itself has been cut in the past to fit onto a single CD.

This site seems to rate the current Repertoire issue as the best so far so its probably worth a punt despite my reservations about what may have been cut to fit two 7” singles on (unless its a double!). Just being able to hear Yeti is worth $16 of anybody’s money, it is as I have frequently pointed out one of the best albums ever made in any genre by anyone at any time. There is nothing like it, and if you like Phallus Dei already I guarantee it will blow the back of your head off!

Tony.

 

[kasperhauser]

French release

German release

I'm not sure now what made me think one had an extra track, as I don't see that mentioned in either of the descriptions. I'll check locally for the Repertoire release, but odds are I'll end up having to get it off the web.

Thanks!

 

[Mullardman]

Originally posted by Paul L
You're not outvoted entirely Mullardman, I must confess I don't know DC but the whole Krautrock/punk/new wave thing which I tend to think of as 3 chords, attitude and acne always left me cold and I haven't changed.

I also fall into the camp of liking people who can sing and play in (hopefully) most genres whether rock, heavy rock, singer-songwriter, country, bluegrass, folk, light jazz, pop, soul and of course classical. Couldn't give a damn if it's seen as polished and unoriginal. I also like, theatre, drama, changing emotions and melody in my music too (which probably accounts for my choices and ) which to me are mutually exclusive from the K/P/NW genres. But others obviously hear differently and I can't argue with that.

Paul

Thanks for your support! It would be interesting to know the respective ages of posters in this thread, as I'm fairly sure that we generally get less radical as we age. I wouldn't for one minute want to discourage people from experimenting with new musical ideas/forms, etc. We'd be a lot worse off musically if all progress had been stopped at some point. I remember heated arguments in my youth, with me defending everything from to jazz, to Hendrix, to Dylan, against reactionary forces.(Mostly my parents)
But I am no longer an idealistic youth, and while I still like most of the music of my youth, I have learned to appreciate the worth of true virtuosity as well. Anyone here who likes classical music must agree with me by definition, as classical musicians spend their time 'polishing', (although I prefer the term 'interpreting'), music which has been done numerous times before.

Mull

 

[Tony L]

I'm not sure now what made me think one had an extra track, as I don't see that mentioned in either of the descriptions. I'll check locally for the Repertoire release, but odds are I'll end up having to get it off the web.

The second link you gave definitely has the correct track list (though on the vinyl the sections listed on the CD as tracks 1-5 and 7-10 are solid blocks and have no gaps between them).

The link I gave in the above post is now not working as it did earlier in the evening, but you can still get to where I meant by typing Yeti into the search box! I don’t understand that one! I think I’d go for the Repertoire edition as at least its cheap and apparently is the most recent master. I have had a good search around the web and which (if any) are official releases is very hard to figure out - Amon Düül II don't seem to have a official web presense of any kind.

Tony.