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Active speakers - Kii Audio, Dutch & Dutch...

If size is your thing then I would point out that a Dutch & Dutch 8c has slightly more driver surface area than an SCM100.

Cabinet volume is also a factor - in fact that's what the 100 means. As I'm sure you know.
Plus.

One 12 inch has significantly more area than the two 8 inchers.

Larger displacement is most important toward lower frequencies and higher SPLs. I don't count mid drivers (or mid cabinet internal volume) in such comparisons. I think that's fair.
 
Hi Ste,

I had an evening listening to the Kii & D&D last year using a Aurelic G2 streamer with two friends. Both active speakers were very good, but on the evening the three of us had a decided preference for the D&D. None of us were tempted to change our current systems.

The overriding thought i had was that they were superb value for money.

A friend who professionally masters films bought round pair of commercial active speakers a few months ago. These were far cheaper. While not as good as the Kii & D&D they were, again, excellent VFM.

I don't think there is any magic bullet here and I would encourage you to do the legwork before you commit. Depending where you are on your hifi journey these speakers may be an excellent choice, if you already have some good components another direction may be better.

Look forward to your thoughts when you have had a listen.

M

Yes I'm not in a hurry, honestly I must say I like my two systems a lot. Both have been stripped down to pre/DAC feeding a power amp.
One is RME DAC/NAP250/Totem Forest, the other is TeddyDAC (now back in Israel being converted into Volume Control version)/NAP200/SBL.
I dropped a n-272 and NAC102/DualTeddyCap and moved to these new setups quite recently so I guess I'd like to enjoy them for some more time..... but who doesn't like the idea of moving to something better.

As much as I like these "minimal" systems which look quite unconventional to me, I have started to understand that technology has developed a lot and I'm trying to understand what to expect from it.
Replies here have been most helpful and I'm making my mind up.

As AndyU said above, unfortunately this is not the best time to travel across the country for hifi demos (actually, it's temporarily forbidden by the new sanitary regulations). When possible I'll try to set demos.
 
They provide quite a few adjustment options to allow you to tune them to better suit your room and also your taste. Probably the most important adjustment is to let each speaker know how far away it is from the front wall and the nearest side wall. Each speaker has a settings page which allows you to specify these distances in 10cm bands. The only tools required for this are a tape measure and a web browser.

Each speaker also has built-in parametric EQ filters. This is most often used to smooth out the in room response at the bottom end, where the modal resonances of the room invariably lead to large peaks and dips at certain frequencies. Generating the parametric EQ filter values requires either an exceptionally good ear or a measurement microphone and software like Room EQ Wizard. The microphone is not expensive and the software is free, but it does come with a bit of a learning curve. I do this for my 8c customers or I show them how to do it for themselves, as they prefer. Hopefully your dealer provides the same service.

You can apply EQ to make the speakers produce a flat in room response or to fit your own custom tone curve. I normally encourage customers to start off with a -1dB/octave gently sloping curve as in theory at least this is what a perfect loudspeaker should produce when placed into a real room. It is also what our brains are used to hearing from real instruments and voices. You can use more elaborate curves like the Harman subjective listener curves, the Bruel and Kjaer curve or pretty much anything else you could reasonably want. Once you have a reliable set of measurements, it is easy to generate alternative filters to implement different curves.

There are also some shelving controls which are great for making quick and easily reversible adjustments to the sub bass, bass and treble.


Fine tuning the speakers response to the room is something really intriguing. I must say, I moved to a different house last year, and was amazed by how different the sound was. Much better overall, but I had to make some tweakings to get the sound right especially because of the carpet floor (it was tiles and wood in the previous house).
The idea of speakers and matching amps that have been designed and developed together, as well as the possibility to adjust the sound according to personal preferences and room characteristics sounds very very attractive.... but I'm a bit scared by technicalia and similar stuff. One of the things that I'd like to set straight with a demo, is understanding how complicated the setup and tuning precess is. Thanks for all these details.
 
That’s interesting, because I found the D&Ds worked very well for non classical, non acoustic genres. For classical they just didn’t sound like music. I had a splendid afternoon listening to a friend’s pair of SCM40s and they did sound like music. Having a load of features which are supposed to be good doesn’t necessarily translate into a speaker that creates a convincing illusion of the original performance. This is maybe why they are impressive for genres where there is no original performance and if that is one’s thing, and it probably is for the majority of people, the D&Ds are worth an audition.

It is a very poor excuse for the speakers to say that they accurately reproduce the recording because that is all we have. Classical listeners recognise when a speaker produces sounds like the music we love. Non classical listeners probably wonder what we are banging on about! Loudspeakers don’t sound in isolation, nice idea that that might be, they sound in combination with a room. Whilst the room may be a nuisance in what it can do to the sound, designing a loudspeaker to try and negate its influence, just ends up being unconvincing for genres where we have an idea what the music should sound like. The room is a very necessary evil!

As for ATC dropping Keith, perhaps they saw the pictures he posts of his dem room!
I guess this is the problem when you start “listening” to the theory and measurements too much, you can no longer hear the wood for the trees, or more “accurately” the leaves. Not that there is anything wrong with your approach if that is what floats your boat, and I wish you and your fellow leaf studiers much joy. But please, coming out with such sneering nonsense as “I am sure in 1985 they were really something” does your argument no favours and just indicates that you are clutching at straws to pursue an ideology which has left music behind.

Well, I guess it depends what you think sounds good. I have the Kii''s, and one of the things that convinced me to buy them was how good I thought they sounded with classical music, especially orchestral music. I auditioned them the morning after hearing a live performance of Mahler's 6th symphony, and was very impressed by what a good job they did giving an illusion of a symphony - including the low bass notes and extreme dynamic swings. It's definitely one of the things that convinced me to buy them.
Maybe it means that like many listeners, you confuse the fuzz and distortion your room adds in to the sound that reaches your ears with what's "natural". Your room effects aren't "natural sounding". Sounds in nature, including live classical music (assuming it's performed in a suitably large space), don't suffer from such effects.

I don't think that makes me or anyone else who likes the sound of such speakers a "leaf studier". I don't study leaves and know little about them.
 
Sure. I'd be happy to. These are the three curves referenced in my previous post.

1dB/octave linear

1dB%20per%20octave.jpg


Bruel and Kjaer

Bruel%20and%20Kjaer.jpg


Harman all listeners

Harman%20all%20listeners.jpg


Thank you.
I use a Trinnov room correction device. I'll try and post some screen shots of my curves later, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
I'm assuming you've done something to address the +12db peak you have between 30 and 40hz?
I have a similar one at 40hz and to a lesser degree at 60hz.

Thanks
 
Well, I guess it depends what you think sounds good. I have the Kii''s, and one of the things that convinced me to buy them was how good I thought they sounded with classical music, especially orchestral music. I auditioned them the morning after hearing a live performance of Mahler's 6th symphony, and was very impressed by what a good job they did giving an illusion of a symphony - including the low bass notes and extreme dynamic swings. It's definitely one of the things that convinced me to buy them.
Maybe it means that like many listeners, you confuse the fuzz and distortion your room adds in to the sound that reaches your ears with what's "natural". Your room effects aren't "natural sounding". Sounds in nature, including live classical music (assuming it's performed in a suitably large space), don't suffer from such effects.

I don't think that makes me or anyone else who likes the sound of such speakers a "leaf studier". I don't study leaves and know little about them.
Very much this, the Kiis and8Cs just reproduce the file as accurately as possible.
Keith
 
Well, I guess it depends what you think sounds good. I have the Kii''s, and one of the things that convinced me to buy them was how good I thought they sounded with classical music, especially orchestral music. I auditioned them the morning after hearing a live performance of Mahler's 6th symphony, and was very impressed by what a good job they did giving an illusion of a symphony - including the low bass notes and extreme dynamic swings. It's definitely one of the things that convinced me to buy them.
Maybe it means that like many listeners, you confuse the fuzz and distortion your room adds in to the sound that reaches your ears with what's "natural". Your room effects aren't "natural sounding". Sounds in nature, including live classical music (assuming it's performed in a suitably large space), don't suffer from such effects.

I don't think that makes me or anyone else who likes the sound of such speakers a "leaf studier". I don't study leaves and know little about them.
Just to point out that my posts were largely to balance Keith’s sales hype and denigrating what he doesn’t sell when this thread wasn’t in the dealer section of the forum.

I’ve no wish to denigrate your choice and I have many times pointed out that these cardioid speakers are excellent, but not perfect. A lot depends on how you as an individual perceive reproduced audio and what aspects trigger a recognition of the original performance.

When I had a pair of D&D in my house a guest who attends many classical concerts remarked on how impressive they were. When we switched to a pair of MBL speakers his response was “but they sound like music”. We were playing Saint Saens Organ Symphony and Tallis Spem at the time.

As for confusing fuzz and distortion of a room with what’s natural, I have worked in a “non room”, an anechoic chamber, so know that all speakers, even cardioid speakers, rely on the room. Try not to be taken in by Keith quoting B&O documentation for their very different speakers to mine. How much we want speakers to interact with the room is a matter for us as individuals to decide, and in the case of omnis how we are free to place the speakers in our room. In my rather lively room the finest resolution with MBL speakers was indeed very slightly smeared but that had to be balanced against their almost holographic presentation which made soloists in chamber music, especially, appear in front of one. In the last analysis that slight loss in resolution was less important than the sense of realism. I have since heard MBL speakers in a more sympathetic room, expertly set up, give as much resolution as cardioid speakers but not losing that “holographic” quality. Thus impressed I have now optimised my own set up.

My current thought is that if reproducing the detail in a recording is of primary importance in creating an illusion of the original performance than well designed cardioids can, as you have discovered, be an excellent choice. If you are also sensitive to spatial qualities then other speakers, proper omnis or dipoles, perhaps, could be more effective for ones perception but only if you have the space to accommodate and position them. From a visual point of view I would much rather look at a pair of Kiis near the end of the room than a large speaker 1/3 of the way into the room! Also my entry level MBLs do also need a socking great sub, especially for that Saint Saens and often in Mahler!

It strikes me that there isn’t an ideal speaker for all genres of music and more importantly all people, and that needed pointing out when this thread was in the discussion rather than dealers’ section of the forum.
 
Plus.

One 12 inch has significantly more area than the two 8 inchers.

Larger displacement is most important toward lower frequencies and higher SPLs. I don't count mid drivers (or mid cabinet internal volume) in such comparisons. I think that's fair.

Yes, but the 8c has three 8" drivers and as @Roger Adams pointed out the crossover is in a different place. Three 8" drivers have slightly more surface area than one 12.3" driver and one mid dome. If you add up the surface area of all of the drivers on both of these speakers, the Dutch & Dutch 8c actually has slightly more surface area. That is a fact, but I am not really arguing that this one variable somehow makes the 8c superior to the SCM100, the Kii Three or any other loudspeaker for that matter. There are too many other variables to consider. I picked up on driver area because that is what Roger did in his post.

It is impossible to ignore the difference in cabinet volume, especially if you have ever seen the ATC SCM100 and Dutch & Dutch 8c side by side.
 
Thank you.
I use a Trinnov room correction device. I'll try and post some screen shots of my curves later, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
I'm assuming you've done something to address the +12db peak you have between 30 and 40hz?
I have a similar one at 40hz and to a lesser degree at 60hz.

Thanks

This is not my room. This is the right channel of a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8c measured in a customer's home, measured at and around the listening position. No correction has been applied here. The trace uses REW's variable smoothing (1/48 octave below 100 Hz, 1/3 octave above 10 kHz and varies between 1/48 and 1/3 octave from 100 Hz to 10 kHz, reaching 1/6 octave at 1 kHz). Before taking these measurements, I completed some basic adjustments, including telling each speaker how far away it is from the front wall and the side wall.

My follow on post shows the same measurement and the 1dB/octave linear target curve with some filters applied to deal with the peak you referenced and a couple of others. The measurement is real but those filters were created by me just to illustrate what can be achieved using the parametric EQ and a small number of filters, in this case just three filters. The actual filters created for this customer would also have taken into account any imbalance between the left and right sides. I would also have made some further measurements with the filters in place to verify that they are working as predicted.
 
My current thought is that if reproducing the detail in a recording is of primary importance in creating an illusion of the original performance than well designed cardioids can, as you have discovered, be an excellent choice. If you are also sensitive to spatial qualities then other speakers, proper omnis or dipoles, perhaps, could be more effective for ones perception but only if you have the space to accommodate and position them. From a visual point of view I would much rather look at a pair of Kiis near the end of the room than a large speaker 1/3 of the way into the room! Also my entry level MBLs do also need a socking great sub, especially for that Saint Saens and often in Mahler!

It strikes me that there isn’t an ideal speaker for all genres of music and more importantly all people, and that needed pointing out when this thread was in the discussion rather than dealers’ section of the forum.

I'd definitely agree with that. It's clear that we all react to speakers differently: what I think sounds natural and revealing, someone else thinks sounds artificial and overly detailed. I personally heard a 100K system with Magico speakers that I hated. To me it didn't sound like music. I'm sure lots of others would have thought it was close to perfection.
It also depends a lot on your listening room. I'm in a small space, so something like the Kii's or the D&D's is also, in practical terms, my best bet for getting full range output with lots of dynamics that also works in the room. If I had a large space I'd probably go in a different direction.
 
Yes, but the 8c has three 8" drivers and as @Roger Adams pointed out the crossover is in a different place. Three 8" drivers have slightly more surface area than one 12.3" driver and one mid dome.
Well I call it a mid-driver, and so do D&D.

This is sophistry, since copious surface area makes a key difference at lower frequencies, not over 100Hz.
 
I'd definitely agree with that. It's clear that we all react to speakers differently: what I think sounds natural and revealing, someone else thinks sounds artificial and overly detailed. I personally heard a 100K system with Magico speakers that I hated. To me it didn't sound like music. I'm sure lots of others would have thought it was close to perfection.
It also depends a lot on your listening room. I'm in a small space, so something like the Kii's or the D&D's is also, in practical terms, my best bet for getting full range output with lots of dynamics that also works in the room. If I had a large space I'd probably go in a different direction.
Thanks for your reply. I think you touch on something important when you refer to the size of the room, particularly with speakers that tend to bring the performers “into your room” rather than take one “to the venue”; all dependant on recording of course. With a larger room than it can be conceivable that a small group of musicians could play in front of one which helps with the illusion. Maybe, with a smaller room one needs more detail to compensate for the space in front of one not being big enough to hold the performers.

Of course, with an orchestra all bets are off and I feel that the extra detail we hear from our audio system compensates for the lack of visual experience we get at a concert. Much more interesting (!), who was conducting the Mahler 6, live and recorded? One thing is undeniable is that we have both found ways of enjoying music in our home which work well for us, and that is what it is all about!
 
Not all active speakers have integrated crossovers and amps - in fact when comparing equivalent integrated vs external electronics versions of Linn speakers, the externally driven ones do sound better. But I get the point you're making about few people going from active back to passive (it does happen), which I think is the point you were making - which isn't directly related to integrated vs separates active solutions.


Thanks.

I already have full actives (Dyns F110a) and also powered speakers (audioengine A5s and a2s), plus some devices with dac and amp in them plus added DSP (B&W MM1, A7), so am reasonably familiar with the differences and variants in this class.

But I have not yet had an AIO (all in one) high end £6k-£10k system box featuring cones, amps, powered crossovers, DAC DSP etc - hence interest in the Kii, 8Cs, SCM40a (no DSP) and Dyn XD30s.

Factoring in that your lose the cost and clutter of all the (separates) stuff now onboard the box, plus having something that you can just get on and listen to, rather than constantly adding/changing numerous ancillaries etc, I think they could be quite good value long term.
 
Just noticed this topic is in Trade section (?)

On digital active crossover design and implementation, the digital domain file>DAC>Amps>cross over>DSP>cones Vs traditional separates route - I found this an interesting graph-free video from Dynaudio engineering and design.

Puts things far more simply than I have seen elsewhere for the non engineer interested layman such as myself.

Of course it loaded to Dynaudio, but the Q and As eloquently address many of the questions and squabbles mentioned here. That neither is English but their language is impeccable, embarrasses me as a Englander.

Dynaudio Active Design and DSP implementations

 
If only "passive" meant "good", but it doesn't. In passive crossovers:
  • The components dissipate (waste) significant amounts of the power delivered from the amplifier
  • The need to handle high powers makes it difficult to produce components with well controlled tolerances, so the crossover response varies from its design target and from speaker to speaker
  • The power dissipated in the crossover components varies their characteristics - for example, the series resistance of copper inductors increases by approximately 0.4% for every degree C rise in their temperature, degrading their quality factor correspondingly. The common term for the result of variation of characteristics with signal level is distortion.
  • The crossover must be designed for a specific load impedance from the driver. The driver's impedance varies with frequency and signal level, meaning the passive crossover meets its design response approximately none of the time
  • The crossover typically presents a variable load to the amplifier, undermining its stability and varying the frequency response. Passive impedance compensation to try and ameliorate that requires even more components with even more of the degradations listed above.
Analog active crossovers deal with most of the above issues, though the ultimate solution from a performance point of view is to move the crossover into the digital domain. Passive crossovers trail a distant third in the ranking.
Yup, like I said earlier. In contrast a passive set up an analog active crossover is only having to deal with line level signals and the required components are far less compromised than those that have to be used in a passive crossover. Then add to that one channel of amplification is only having to drive one driver across a limited bandwidth and without all those big nasty components in the way. It’s obvious which is the better system.
 
You see, I personally, want to be convinced that there are real musicians, playing real instruments, in my living room. That, after all, is what a mastering engineer is usually trying to maximise.

The ideal bass roll off of the loudspeaker will be decided by the room - I guess that's why ATC offer the three models with various bottom ends. What they can say is that it's a loudspeaker that many a mastering engineer, will have used as his or her mains/midfields.

He or she is mastering for domestic acoustics. They are assuming that the results they get will more closely resemble those that the listener will enjoy. I think it's presumptuous at best to try to second guess the engineer by removing room interaction. That is not something the engineer would have envisaged.

The acoustic of my living room is familiar to me - I certainly think that and I want the music to sound as if it is in the same acoustic/room as I am (this may be different with orchestral works). I find with that, I get such accurate timbre that I am often forced to look up or look around as I am convinced there is an acoustic guitar or a snare drum in the living room. That is what I aim for. That is very different to what a recording engineer is.

They want to hear the level of each track that they are mixing. They have no domestic settings in the recording studio or the recording booth. They want to hear everything in the right space and time. It is later that another engineer, in a very different acoustic, add realistic tonality IMHO and it is THAT which is important to me - not being placed in a fairly dull sounding recording studio (again different for a classical music lover). That tonality is natural to the room. It is natural when I speak to friends sat next to me on the sofa.

Those are my aims and, as I say, they are personal and I do not listen to orchestral music. Each to their own. There is no right or wrong path there - it depends on the listener's personal goals, and which design gives them the most musical pleasure with familiar tracks over a period of time.
I’m with you on what you want your system to deliver. The good news is that there are speakers that are so realistic that it’s spine tingling. The bad news is that they are called Vox Olympians . . . . ☹️
 
I’m with you on what you want your system to deliver. The good news is that there are speakers that are so realistic that it’s spine tingling. The bad news is that they are called Vox Olympians . . . . ☹️
Other choices are available ;)
 
Just completed a Hedd ‘Tower Mains’ Kii Three BXT , Dutch&Dutch 8C demonstration/ comparison, in all honesty I did very little ( as usual) just handed the IPad to the client and he switched between loudspeakers.
He even had the temerity to Bluetooth music to the Kiis from his phone.
Keith
 
Of course, with an orchestra all bets are off and I feel that the extra detail we hear from our audio system compensates for the lack of visual experience we get at a concert. Much more interesting (!), who was conducting the Mahler 6, live and recorded? One thing is undeniable is that we have both found ways of enjoying music in our home which work well for us, and that is what it is all about!

The live Mahler 6 was Jarvi and the NHK in London; the recording was my favorite version - Bernstein conducting the VPO.
 


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