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A Thread About PVC And Polythene Album Covers.

Minstrel SE

These go to eleven
Ive been buying these PVC covers recenty and I can get them online at £8.99 for 25.

Panmer plastics Wembley through a seller on ebay

Very good quality and Im not sure if it matters about how the edges are crimped or the various grades of thickness. There seems to be too much choice.

I use them to protect my treasured albums and 12" singles...obviously :D. The only downside I see is that I cant read the spine if stored on a shelf

The polythene ones look quite handy and much cheaper.

Im not sure where this thread is going but what do you use? :)

Oh its in the music section rather than audio if thats ok
 
My favourite sleeves are the ones they use in Concerto Records in Amsterdam.

They're hard and glossy a bit like mylar and make the records inside look great.

I haven't been able to find them elsewhere and sadly when I asked at the counter they don't sell them :-(
 
On
My favourite sleeves are the ones they use in Concerto Records in Amsterdam.

They're hard and glossy a bit like mylar and make the records inside look great.

I haven't been able to find them elsewhere and sadly when I asked at the counter they don't sell them :-(
They're similar, but heavier gauge and without the self sealing flap, to the ones that Music On Vinyl (also Dutch) supply with their records, I bet they're from the same supplier.

Edit: I think they're these Blake Sleeves: https://www.bagsxl.com/blp1nf-lp-re...sWcs8nlpOLsIX8QGMRQoV68gAFtA2U2RrYaAu6T8P8HAQ

Can also get the sealing ones and ones suitable for gatefold sleeves.
 
Something to bear in mind is if a polymer is plasticised, as plasticisers are generally liquids and are slowly lost from the polymer, into whatever is inside and/or to the environment. Plasticisers may also affect the inks on things like album sleeves. As plasticiser is lost, the polymer becomes brittle. Also beware trade names which confuse things, such as Mylar (most commonly used in the US as a catch-all name for polyester).

PVC as a film is generally plasticised. Polyethylene is not plasticised. Polyester (PETP - trade names are many but include Mylar, Melinex and Ektar) is not plasticised. Polypropylene ( usually as OPP - not Opp - orientated polypropylene) is not plasticised.
 
DO NOT USE PVC COVERS FOR YOUR VINYL RECORDS!!!

PVC sleeves are those that typically came with laser discs and used for picture vinyl records. They are thick, glossy and usually give off a slight chemical smell. The fumes (believed to be from leaching of the plasticizers) can chemically react with vinyl records (even through the record cover and inner sleeve, paper or otherwise) and cause fogging on the records. This 'fog' cannot be removed by cleaning and result in an audible 'swooshing' noise. The damage is permanent.

This is not conjecture and I have personally many records damaged by PVC outers. Many others have reported similar experiences over at the Steve Hoffmann forum. If I were you, I'd bin all of these covers.
 
+ 1 do not use PVC

http://recordcollectormag.com/letters/ruined-vinyl-the-sequels

Polyethylene: Flexibility

Polyethylene (PE) is Inexpensive flexible, soft & antistatic with a standard transparency. Suitable for Archival Storage.

Polypropylene: Transparency

Polypropylene (PP) Anti-Static & are ideal to highlight your records, thanks to their very high transparency and Glass like brilliance. The polypropylene Outer is very smooth and soft but also not as soft as the poly Outers This is because polypropylene is a harder material than polyethylene. Polylypropylene Provides cost-effective Long-Term Archival safe protection for all of you records - Acid Free , Crystal Clear Glass Like Material & 100% Transparent . Polypropylene has strength and durability

PVC: Rigidity

PVC Sleeves are both rigid and transparent (not as transparent as polypropylene). . Known for their durability and resistance.

but can discolour or cloud or crack with age or under UV light

PVC is NOT Suitable for safe Long-Term Archival safe protection for all of you records

PVC contains softners , plasticizers or stearates. PVC does migrate and can harm your Media .

MYLAR:

Record sleeves are made of museum grade Archival Polyester (Mylar), an inert material of the highest clarity. Polyester will not discolor, damage or adhere to items placed inside it. It is a sturdy film that will give extra support to fragile documents.. Polyester is used worldwide in museums, libraries and archives. Polyester material is approved by the Library of Congress for archival storage. This material has passed the Photo Activity Test. PAT

Polypropylene has the strength and durability of Mylar, at a fraction of the cost
 
I've read about fogging but luckily never experienced it (though I'm now thinking perhaps there are infrequently played records on my shelves quietly being ruined...)

I have a random assortment of whatever sleeves I've accumulated over the years. I think perhaps it's time to go through and ditch some of the suspect ones.

I saw Juno offer these resealable polypropylene sleeves. Does anyone have any other recommendations?

http://www.juno.co.uk/products/ernie-bs-ernie-bs-polypropylene-crystal-clear/528619-01/
 
Also a bit of a bugger for records on PAN as the vinyl sits directly in a screen-printed PVC sleeve!

I've already put mine in a Nagaoga-style inner sleeve but perhaps the outer sleeve should be removed entirely..

lee_gamble_590x353px.jpg
 
DO NOT USE PVC COVERS FOR YOUR VINYL RECORDS!!!

PVC sleeves are those that typically came with laser discs and used for picture vinyl records. They are thick, glossy and usually give off a slight chemical smell. The fumes (believed to be from leaching of the plasticizers) can chemically react with vinyl records (even through the record cover and inner sleeve, paper or otherwise) and cause fogging on the records. This 'fog' cannot be removed by cleaning and result in an audible 'swooshing' noise. The damage is permanent.

This is not conjecture and I have personally many records damaged by PVC outers. Many others have reported similar experiences over at the Steve Hoffmann forum. If I were you, I'd bin all of these covers.

I have been using PVC sleeves to protect record covers since 1970 and not one of my records has been damaged in the way described. The PVC sleeves themselves degrade over time and when they do I replace them.

Like the OP, I have also bought PVC sleeves from Panmer plastics and at present they seem to be the best available.
 
Likewise I've been doing this for a very long time and I've seen many records damaged by direct contact with PVC sleeves (certain coloured vinyl house 12", picture discs etc), and this can happen very fast, but never one that was in a conventional sleeve and inner inside a PVC sleeve. Not one. I couldn't begin to estimate how many records I've dealt with over the years, but it is a huge, huge number! My suspicion is that people reporting such issues are actually reporting another phenomenon, e.g. the reaction many Decca records had with their poly inners, some reaction with a cleaning process etc, something like that. Either that or it is something that only occurs in very hot or humid parts of the world, but again I'd have expected to have come across that too as records do move about. There has to be another explanation as I really have seen just about every conceivable issue one can have with record storage!

PS FWIW the vast majority of my own records are in the cheaper poly outers (the ones from Covers33) as they are cheap enough and seem to do the job fine. Some are still in heavier PVC covers, but I tend to replace them when I pull that record out as chances are it is cracked or yellowed.
 
Also a bit of a bugger for records on PAN as the vinyl sits directly in a screen-printed PVC sleeve!

I've already put mine in a Nagaoga-style inner sleeve but perhaps the outer sleeve should be removed entirely..

lee_gamble_590x353px.jpg

I have done something similar and the records are fine.
 
Hi Daytona, speaking as someone who worked in the plastic film and surface coatings industry for a little short of 20 years, and especially involved with handling and antistatic properties of plastic films, I can say that, unfortunately, you have probably copied an awful lot of misinformation……………..

First off, no polymer of modest price is antistatic. No ifs, no buts. Cheap(ish) films that are genuinely antistatic are either coextruded, or more commonly, coated. Coatings reasonably easily wear off, coextruded layers are far more robust. Either way, what touches the film is not touching the base plastic film.
Where the antistatic properties of PE and PP nonsense comes from, I don't know, but it seems to be restricted to hifi/music forums. A quick search of industrial polymer/film extrusion/formulation websites will quickly dispel the myth.

All of the plastic films that you are likely to consider using for packaging are also effectively acid-free, although that term is far more properly applied to paper, not plastics.

ALL plastics, no exceptions, discolour and become brittle when exposed to short-wave light, and particularly UV. It is a very inconvenient fact of nature that the C-C bond strength corresponds of a photon energy in the UV – in other words – all C-C bonds are potentially destroyed by violet-UV radiation, and all polymers are long chains of - C-C-C -. How resistant to light any polymer is varies, but only specific UV-absorbers (such as carbon black - the best of all), extend life of plastics.

Just to complicate things, some plastics are resistant to charging, but are not antistatic in any conventional sense, they just do not generate static in the first place. Antistatic materials generally do charge-up but they dissipate the charge. To understand this better, you need to read about how static is generated by triboelectric charging (NOT by friction, which is even stated on the Oracle – Wikipedia. PTFE – Teflon – charges horrendously, but is not exactly high friction material.)

Polyethylene comes in myriad grades/molecular weight distributions. Clarity, scratch resistance (hardness), resistance to ageing effects, and much besides vary enormously as a consequence. It commonly contains processing aids, commonly fluropolymers.

Polypropylene – as per polyethylene – myriad grades and appearances. Polypropylene film in particular generally contains processing aids, commonly glycerol mono-stearate (GMS) which is NOT a plasticiser – GMS, glycerol and stearic acid are very slowly lost from polypropylene films.

PVC – as per polyethylene – myriad grades and appearances. As a film it will be plasticised, very commonly using complex phthalate esters – which are mostly what warm PVC film smells of. Plasticisers are slowly lost from PVC films, which means that they become progressively less pliable/more brittle. It would take a very long time for any plasticiser to make its way through a card LP sleeve, and if you use an inner plastic sleeve, even longer to reach the actual record.

(BO)PETP film – bi-axially orientated polyethylene terephthalate - commonly called Mylar in the US, chemically a polyester – as per polyethylene – myriad grades and appearances. May contain processing aids, but these are commonly inorganic, non-volatile chemicals such as silica.
 
To add to the above I will give you an example of one of my records stored in a PVC sleeve.

I bought Mice and Rats in the Loft by Jan Dukes de Grey in 1972, mainly because I liked the cover and was intrigued by the band. It was probably about 50p in a remaindered bin so it was new but had a few cover creases. It is a complex cover with a clear PVC type inner which held the record in place.

When I got it home, after I played it, I found an old plastic inner from somewhere to put the record in and placed the cover in a PVC outer sleeve. Its a strange record and I confess to have only played it half a dozen times including once this year to a friend. I have just taken some pictures of the sleeve and record and uploaded them. It still looks good to me, albeit a trifle dusty.

Here they are:











 
I would definitely recommend the Blake Sleeves from Bags XL (linked to earlier in the thread)

The price really comes down if you buy a few packs and If you spend more than 70 euros or thereabouts postage to UK is free. I have moved my entire collection over from a combination of PVC and Polythene.

One unexpected benefit of this sleeve is it is much thinner and I have gained quite a bit of extra record space on my shelves.

I use the ones without the flap and they are terrific. Records really pop in these sleeves and I can easily read the spines. I find many standard gatefolds including many doubles will go into the standard sleeve (albeit a little snugly).
They have also recently started to do a larger sleeve intended for double and triple albums. I did buy a pack of these to try and they are the same high quality, but to my mind they are a little big. For example Santana Lotus fits in quite loosely.
When I threw out the old sleeves they about filled 1/3 of a wheelie bin, but the new stack of 1000 Blake sleeves were around 5" high.
 
To add to the above I will give you an example of one of my records stored in a PVC sleeve.

I bought Mice and Rats in the Loft by Jan Dukes de Grey in 1972, mainly because I liked the cover and was intrigued by the band. It was probably about 50p in a remaindered bin so it was new but had a few cover creases. It is a complex cover with a clear PVC type inner which held the record in place.

When I got it home, after I played it, I found an old plastic inner from somewhere to put the record in and placed the cover in a PVC outer sleeve. Its a strange record and I confess to have only played it half a dozen times including once this year to a friend. I have just taken some pictures of the sleeve and record and uploaded them. It still looks good to me, albeit a trifle dusty.

That, as I assume you know, is a very rare and valuable record! Looks in great condition too so I'd expect £300-500 for it. You did well to separate the vinyl from the sleeve as many have hazing and other issues now. The foam does almost as much damage as the clear PVC. There is a Colosseum album that has a similar degree of craziness for the vinyl to reside in, as such it is almost impossible to find a non-trashed copy.
 
That, as I assume you know, is a very rare and valuable record! Looks in great condition too so I'd expect £300-500 for it. You did well to separate the vinyl from the sleeve as many have hazing and other issues now. The foam does almost as much damage as the clear PVC. There is a Colosseum album that has a similar degree of craziness for the vinyl to reside in, as such it is almost impossible to find a non-trashed copy.

I vaguely remember that Colosseum record but can't think when I last saw one. I only discovered the rarity of Mice and Rats when I started using Discogs a couple of years ago. I posted the pictures because it is a good example of how, in my experience, PVC covers do little if any damage to records if the LP is not in direct contact with the record. As for PVC leeching through the cover, this LP had two lots of PVC to deal with over its 45 years in my possession. I understand why people are anxious about storage solutions ending up doing damage but the advantages of a relatively stiff outer protective cover far outweigh any negatives.
 
Hi Vinny - in laymans terms what should we be keeping our records in?

Unfortunately, some sleeves are sold without saying what they are - even Nagaoka claim that they are something like PP, which they aren't, or not solely anyway. That said, I have 30 year-old Nagaoka sleeves that are as new, as are the records inside them. I have never used anything but Nagaoka inner sleeves, so can't comment on other brands. Whether Nagaoka are really antistatic or do not charge-up (thereby achieving the same effect), I have no idea as I no longer have access to the lab kit to find out.

Apart from that - avoid PVC both for inner sleeves and for protecting record outer sleeves, if for no other reason than the fact that there are plenty to choose from that aren't PVC. Beyond that, go with whatever suits you personally. Also bear in mind that PVC films will vary enormously in detail, manufacturer to manufacturer, but all PVC film will be plasticised.
 


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