1. Things you need to know about the new ‘Conversations’ PM system:

    a) DO NOT REPLY TO THE NOTIFICATION EMAIL! I get them, not the intended recipient. I get a lot of them and I do not want them! It is just a notification, log into the site and reply from there.

    b) To delete old conversations use the ‘Leave conversation’ option. This is just delete by another name.
    Dismiss Notice

3 Sad Bastards

Discussion in 'audio' started by halvis, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. halvis

    halvis pfm Member

    and a 4th here, but I suspect a few more on here ;-)

    For those that don't know, 3 Sad Bastards is the name of a HiFi podcast on Spotify where 3 Australian audiophiles discuss all things HiFi of course..

    I was listening last night and this episode came on:

    They had a guest on, Roger Sanders of Sanders Audio Systems. He reckoned that the minimum output of an amp should be around 500W otherwise clipping would occur. I know this was discussed on a thread a few weeks ago on here, but I can't find it now. I didn't really read that thread, but I am aware of calculators that seem to provide sensible results. Sanders speakers are Electrostatic and probably have horrible impedance curves, but he seems to be using the same logic for all speakers types.

    Anyway, he also said that his statement is easily proven by putting an oscilloscope across the speaker terminals and where the wave gets clipped it shows that clipping is occurring. One of the sad bastards said he has seen the same on a pair of Zingali's ,a 90db+ sensitive speaker that he was powering with a 50wpc amp and possibly an easy load, but I haven't checked.

    Just wondering if anyone else has tried such things and had similar results?
  2. booja30

    booja30 pfm Member

    So the speaker sensitivity is 94dB but needs a 500w amp. Something doesn't add up. Also, they kind of look DIY especially given the price when compared to Martin Logans...

    "Do you have lots of shoji screens and want a speaker that blends in? Well now you can!" is kind of what I got from the photos on the website. :)
    nmtjb likes this.
  3. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    Wasn’t there someone famous who lived under the name of sanders?
    gustav_errata and Darren like this.
  4. gustavm

    gustavm pfm Member

    I tried this a few years ago into Harbeth speakers rated at 86dB /1W/1m sensitivity. At moderate levels on peaky, orchestral music, I was seeing peaks well below than 5 volts, so very roughly 3watts. Of course hearing (volume perception) is logarithmic, and some might like to listen at much higher levels with less efficient speakers.

    But if the article is trying to make a generalisation that 500W minimum is needed, this is very clearly utter b*ll*cks. Stupid b*st*rds may be more accurate than sad.
  5. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    Yes I've done this, but I don't agree.
    At the loudest level I could cope with with my 87dB/W speakers, I saw a peak voltage of about 35V. That's 153W peak into 8 Ohms. A 75W amp will do that.
    At more representative "very loud" levels, peaks of about 20V are about the max. That's 50W peak into 8R. So a 25W amp is fine for 99.9% of my listening.
  6. Big Tabs

    Big Tabs looking backwards, going forwards

    I thought this site is supposed to be family friendly?
  7. halvis

    halvis pfm Member

    Yes, as I thought. Seems mad, he calls it 'peak clipping', claims you can hear it, it's distortion that annoys you when listening and makes you switch off. 500W is the minimum, anything less sounds terrible apparently!
  8. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    ATC top end active speakers have around 300-350 watts per channel, I’m pretty sure they don’t clip at volumes way past usual.
  9. Darren

    Darren All Business

    Are you referring to the white haired geezer who had a secret recipe?
    booja30 likes this.
  10. Emlin

    Emlin MQA Hater!

    Yes. He fried his speakers.
  11. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    deserter and Darren like this.
  12. Enfield boy

    Enfield boy pfm Member

    LostAtSea likes this.
  13. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    I am reminded of that industry bloke who used to come on here and call everything but his own kit, 'legacy'.
  14. RustyB

    RustyB Registered Ginga

    Was that the one who sold active speakers, by any chance?
  15. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    I was inferring that someone was talking pooh.
  16. Curtis

    Curtis pfm Member

    A A Milne?
  17. pocketkitchen

    pocketkitchen Registered User

    So, pretty much every domestic amp ever made is sub-par, from Pioneer, Marantz and Technics, to Audio Note, Krell and Naim?

    Sounds like someone’s talking bollocks!
  18. BB Wan

    BB Wan pfm Member

    Didn't Antony Michaelson have a similar notion many moons ago when he released the 500W MF Superchargers?
    I seem to recall a little cardboard wheel chart that they supplied which worked out the 'required' amplifier power for your given speaker specs :)
    @Arkless Electronics do you remember that?
  19. John Phillips

    John Phillips pfm Member

    Yes. However beware that when measuring peaks a lot of test kit either effectively or explicitly averages what it measures over some time window. If so, true peaks are going to be higher than the measurement. This is especially so for SPL meters. For example, see here for John Atkinson measuring true audio peaks in a concert hall.

    It may not matter that over an hour's music a small number of instantaneous peaks get clipped. At some point clipping will become audible, but blanket statements on amplifier power are indeed not credible.
  20. pocketkitchen

    pocketkitchen Registered User

    I remember that. I remember the wheel telling me me that my system at the time simply couldn’t work!

Share This Page


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice