3 Sad Bastards

[gustavm]

Yes. However beware that when measuring peaks a lot of test kit either effectively or explicitly averages what it measures over some time window. If so, true peaks are going to be higher than the measurement. This is especially so for SPL meters. For example, see here for John Atkinson measuring true audio peaks in a concert hall.

It may not matter that over an hour's music a small number of instantaneous peaks get clipped. At some point clipping will become audible, but blanket statements on amplifier power are indeed not credible.

This was done using an oscilloscope, where you might expect a channel bandwidth much greater than the audio bandwidth, and (in my case at least) with the brilliance wound up on the CRT so short duration peaks can be seen.

Actually I do recall a fairly recent Harbeth video of a demo where Alan Shaw was present, of a dealer demonstrating peak levels in the several hundreds of watts. This was with purely electronic music. I guess this could potentially give a very much greater crest factor than any natural acoustical music source, e.g. delta functions are not a problem for an electronic generator, but very difficult to produce on a violin or to sing!

 

[Marchbanks]

and a 4th here, but I suspect a few more on here ;-)

Well, since you mention it... I don’t want to appear judgmental, but if you have the entire Spotify music collection at your disposal but instead choose to listen to three blokes discussing the non-linear phase-shift on their DAC power supplies...

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Didn't Antony Michaelson have a similar notion many moons ago when he released the 500W MF Superchargers?
I seem to recall a little cardboard wheel chart that they supplied which worked out the 'required' amplifier power for your given speaker specs
@Arkless Electronics do you remember that?

Way after my time there! A370, A1, B1 etc when I was there.

 

[Tony L]

Didn't Antony Michaelson have a similar notion many moons ago when he released the 500W MF Superchargers?
I seem to recall a little cardboard wheel chart that they supplied which worked out the 'required' amplifier power for your given speaker specs

That was pure comedy gold, an advertising device “proving” past MF amps such as the A1 weren’t fit for the purpose for which they were sold! I’ve never had that much respect for MF, ‘the Amstrad Krell’ to my mind, but that was almost as funny as AVI trying to claim the “class AB” amp packs in their little active speakers were “500 Watts”. LOLtastic!

PS Regarding the OP, yes, I’ve tried it with an oscilloscope and a fast reacting peak-reading multimeter and I’m not clipping my 10 Watt Leak even into 83db JR149s or LS3/5As at any listening level I’d want to achieve. As ever advertising rhetoric is advertising rhetoric.

 

[John Phillips]

This was done using an oscilloscope, where you might expect a channel bandwidth much greater than the audio bandwidth, and (in my case at least) with the brilliance wound up on the CRT so short duration peaks can be seen.

Actually I do recall a fairly recent Harbeth video of a demo where Alan Shaw was present, of a dealer demonstrating peak levels in the several hundreds of watts. This was with purely electronic music. I guess this could potentially give a very much greater crest factor than any natural acoustical music source, e.g. delta functions are not a problem for an electronic generator, but very difficult to produce on a violin or to sing!

Indeed a 'scope will be OK.

I have had experience of how excessive clipping sounds from an under-powered amplifier. And to me it's not pleasant.

An acquaintance was running a 4W SET amplifier (home built) into some fairly insensitive B&W 'speakers. He loved the sound. He also took a recording with his Rode microphones and I received a copy. Sure enough, during the louder bits the poor little amplifier showed much soft clipping when the file was displayed via Audacity. I am sure he genuinely loved the sound he heard, but it was pretty awful to my ears, although perhaps not as bad as I suspect hard clipping would sound.

Ever since then I have been careful to ensure there's enough power for my favourite music, including the electronica you mention above where it is quite frequent to have seriously high crest factor. I have no idea in realty where a bit of clipping becomes objectionable. But these days IME it's quite possible to be sure that it isn't a problem for the electronics (although loudspeaker drive units can also clip, usually softly).

 

[Mynamemynaim]

I guess a nait 1 with 15watts max just wouldn't cut it
Cannot believe anyone ever bought one

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Actually MF, in spite of crap customer service and in spite of some products having dubious reliability made ALL of the best amplifiers ever built by a mainstream UK hi fi manufacturer. That is simple fact. Not the most reliable no, not the best made no but the best sounding and the most daring in concept and circuit design. There are no other UK companies that made anything to rival the A370, SA470, F15, F16, and the range of big "Nuvista" power amps and integrated amps. A1 and A100 brought class A to the masses and sounded great, monster integrated amps like the A1000 shook that market up. The original "The Preamp" took the market by storm as something that could beat anything from Naim, Quad, Meridian etc for half the price and was later followed by excellent pre amps such as the Preamp 3A and the MVX. It's a pity they wouldn't take the steps to make their valve amps (TdP designed) reliable enough as they sounded amazing!

 

[tuga]

I guess a nait 1 with 15watts max just wouldn't cut it
Cannot believe anyone ever bought one

You know what they say, "there's no accounting for taste"...

 

[tuga]

Actually MF, in spite of crap customer service and in spite of some products having dubious reliability made ALL of the best amplifiers ever built by a mainstream UK hi fi manufacturer. That is simple fact. Not the most reliable no, not the best made no but the best sounding and the most daring in concept and circuit design. There are no other UK companies that made anything to rival the A370, SA470, F15, F16, and the range of big "Nuvista" power amps and integrated amps. A1 and A100 brought class A to the masses and sounded great, monster integrated amps like the A1000 shook that market up. The original "The Preamp" took the market by storm as something that could beat anything from Naim, Quad, Meridian etc for half the price and was later followed by excellent pre amps such as the Preamp 3A and the MVX. It's a pity they wouldn't take the steps to make their valve amps (TdP designed) reliable enough as they sounded amazing!

I had the B1 for short while. Can't say I liked how it sounded, but I was still a teenager and it was my second amplifier, so I trusted the dealer...

 

[stevec67]

I had the B1 for short while. Can't say I liked how it sounded, but I was still a teenager and it was my second amplifier, so I trusted the dealer...

I don't think the B1 was much to write home about. Conventional Class AB, built to a cost, small power supply, file under NAD/Rotel/all the others at the price. IMO. That said it was at least screwed together fairly well. It wasn't a Quad, but it wasn't a Nytech either.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I had the B1 for short while. Can't say I liked how it sounded, but I was still a teenager and it was my second amplifier, so I trusted the dealer...

I didn't like the way they were made or the fact that I had to repair literally hundreds of them but I was shocked at how good they could sound.
The B200 is a wonderful thing as an integrated and yet you never hear about them... Basically a P140 power amp with A1 pre amp section. 70WPC and sounds great.

To be clear I despise MF the company and all the management were a pack of shysters! I just think it's a shame that such innovative and good sounding gear is ignored when at any price point for SH gear there is likely an MF amp that will wipe the floor with the rival Naim, Exposure or Quad product.... the reputation for unreliability in fact means they are often much cheaper then rival S/H stuff as well as better sounding. And not all MF products were unreliable by any means! The A1 more than anything else tarnished the reputation of everything else...

I'd take eg a Preamp 3A and a P140/150/170 over say Quad 34 and 306 all day long and the same against Naim etc and on sound quality grounds.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I don't think the B1 was much to write home about. Conventional Class AB, built to a cost, small power supply, file under NAD/Rotel/all the others at the price. IMO. That said it was at least screwed together fairly well. It wasn't a Quad, but it wasn't a Nytech either.

Anything but conventional! That's one of the things I like about their gear... and it's largely TdP to thank for it.
I don't agree that it was screwed together OK though. It was bloody awful in build quality but a well different circuit design and sounded very good.

 

[stevec67]

Anything but conventional! That's one of the things I like about their gear... and it's largely TdP to thank for it.
I don't agree that it was screwed together OK though. It was bloody awful in build quality but a well different circuit design and sounded very good.

I thought it was better screwed together than the A1. A low bar, I know. In what way was it unconventional? The differential stage or the output (Darlington?) arrangement?

 

[Tony L]

I don't agree that it was screwed together OK though. It was bloody awful in build quality but a well different circuit design and sounded very good.

Hence the ‘Amstrad Krell’ reference! I remember the early stuff being remarkably unreliable, horrible soldering, dry joints, components run right at their limits, no thought given to cooling/longevity, crap case printing where the letters fell off etc. They didn’t perform like Krells either IMHO, but certainly gave a big wide soundstage. Sonically I’d describe the ones I know as both ‘lush’ and ‘bright’ simultaneously. I kind of appreciated them but never wanted to own anything aside from I did have an A1 for a very short while (it was stolen before it overheated and blew-up). A friend had loads; Synthesis, Preamp, MVT, DrThomas, P170). I don’t recall any not having some reliability issue or other.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I thought it was better screwed together than the A1. A low bar, I know. In what way was it unconventional? The differential stage or the output (Darlington?) arrangement?

The A1 was vastly better made than the B1! Nothing wrong with the A1 in this respect.... just the insufficient heatsinking!
The entire design of the B1 is very different and unusual. There was the Tempest/Typhoon based on it as well.
The B1, in spite of being very capable SQ wise, is NOT one of the MF designs I would recommend overall... Heatsinks... lack of... again... Same with P180 which is an A370 with separate PSU and bias turned down to class A/B level.... sounds amazing but try to use all its power and it WILL overheat.

Excess cost cutting was the Achilles heel with MF gear but the circuitry used was superior to anything from any other UK company I can think of

With their better products they should be looked at as something you can buy cheap and then renovate, putting right the cost cutting of the originals while you're at it.

 

[Tony L]

With their better products they should be looked at as something you can buy cheap and then renovate, putting right the cost cutting of the originals while you're at it.

That is a good point. The P170 or P270 would be the ones I’d look at.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Hence the ‘Amstrad Krell’ reference! I remember the early stuff being remarkably unreliable, horrible soldering, dry joints, components run right at their limits, no thought given to cooling/longevity, crap case printing where the letters fell off etc. They didn’t perform like Krells either IMHO, but certainly gave a big wide soundstage. Sonically I’d describe the ones I know as both ‘lush’ and ‘bright’ simultaneously. I kind of appreciated them but never wanted to own anything aside from I did have an A1 for a very short while (it was stolen before it overheated and blew-up). A friend had loads; Synthesis, Preamp, MVT, DrThomas, P170). I don’t recall any not having some reliability issue or other.

What took you so long?

Very much the UK Krell and NO other UK company has made high end gear to rival MF in sound quality. No issues with soldering etc and all the models your friend had are reliable. Personally I couldn't care less about things like case printing as it has no effect on the sound but it is par for the course anyway. Quad case printing etc is far worse! Whats that flying past yer ear? A Quad 33 plastic button with the printing worn off that's fallen off when you push another button!

Quad are like the opposite of MF! Sound quality is hugely compromised for longevity, user convenience and "idiot proofing" reasons!

 

[stevec67]

Quad are like the opposite of MF! Sound quality is hugely compromised for longevity, user convenience and "idiot proofing" reasons!

Probably why Quad was always so popular with the pro installs. Want something that can get thrown in the back of a cage in an estate car, then lugged to an OB, connected to any one of a selection of speakers with damaged speaker cables in the wet and still work? Bring on the Quad 50E! What's that? The MF gear back at the studio has started smoking and there's no sound coming out? Ah well. Let me get these Quads out from where they are propping up the table, and I'll get you sorted.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

That is a good point. The P170 or P270 would be the ones I’d look at.

B200, P140, P150, P170, P270, A370 (all same basic power amp design), The Preamp, Preamp 3A and 3B, MVX and to lesser extent MVT are all very good and capable of being perfectly reliable when sorted out. A friend has a pair of P150 power amps I rebuilt for him with high temperature electrolytics etc and made some improvements designed to increase sound quality and these have been 100% reliable for the last 20 years and are used for around 3 hours a day every day. They have also seen off every other power amp he's tried against them so far including ones at £2K new!
He's just got another one to try tri-amping his ATC SCM40's in fact...

 

[Tony L]

Very much the UK Krell and NO other UK company has made high end gear to rival MF in sound quality.

LOL! An incomplete list of UK amps I’d take in a heartbeat over anything by MF: Any vintage valve Leak, Radford, Quad, Armstrong, Beam Echo or Rogers. Any class A Sugden. Chrome-bumper/Vereker-era Naim 160, 250 or 135s. Any Farlow-era Exposure. Anything by EAR, Croft or Tron. And my trusty Quad 303!

PS As ever, if I wanted a MF P470 or NuVista (the latter being one of the most lifeless amps I’ve ever heard, one of the ugliest too) there would be one sitting in the front room!