advertisement


Audiophile Network Switches for Streaming ... really ?

Zombie said:
Ignorance is to believe smth without questioning it or ask for proof.
Click to expand...

100% agreed on the first part of this. That's like religion and stuff.

Proof comes in many forms. Graphs may or may not be one of these; you'd need to ensure you were graphing the right thing. If you can experiment with and without a switch just before your streamer and publish graphs showing there is no difference, I'm sure it will settle things hugely.
 
Zombie said:
No, its not. I stubbornly ask for evidence. Claim -> evidence. Simple. Although the general consensus of the intelligence reserve on the net is the contrary: My unfounded claim -> you must prove I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
You obviously feel quite passionate about this. I'd be happy to take part in whatever experiment you wish to conduct to "prove" (with graphs, obviously) that a network switch can't make any difference to sound quality. Naturally, I'll scrutinise the conditions of your experimental parameters closely. PM me.
 
Zombie said:
Seems nobody has measured the noise. They just talk about it and sell gadgets. Funny.
Click to expand...

Nope, you haven't measured your non-noise either. Call it quits?

Some talk about it and sell gadgets. Others just talk about it, you included. Call it quits?

Funny? Nah, cynical and naive.
 
Anyway, nice chatting but got to dash. I have a business plan to finish and my silent stalker-from-another-world is back.
 
TheFlash said:
Why do you argue when you don't have any measurements to offer yourself?
Noise travels along the same cable as the data. It's the whole reason someone once started experimenting with using a network switch for audiophile purposes in the first place. It can also enter the switch. It can also enter other devices in the chain but a switch won't/can't have any effect on this.

Are you denying that noise (RFI/EMI) is a thing which exists and impacts sound quality?
Click to expand...
According to those graphs above about the noise doesn't look to be in the audio band at any level that one would hear.
TheFlash said:
Anyway, nice chatting but got to dash. I have a business plan to finish and my silent stalker-from-another-world is back.
Click to expand...
That reminds me I have some company accounts to do...
 
chiily said:
According to those graphs above about the noise doesn't look to be in the audio band at any level that one would hear.

That reminds me I have some company accounts to do...
Click to expand...

I'm happy to accept your assertion, as I've never relied on graphs!

I also observe that many people contributing to this thread apparently have no interest in hearing anything at all.

Now there's a thing: just imagine a future event where the graph-wielders (no, wait a minute, the insistors-on-graphs as they don't appear to have any of their own) got together with the listeners and pored over graphs and listened to stuff. They might end up agreeing to an amicable parting of the ways: "your graphs tell me nothing about what I'm quite clearly hearing" vs "I'm quite clearly hearing the nothing which my graphs represent".

Or they might end up saying "clearly the graphs don't represent what may of us are hearing: should we take a closer look at what the graphs are actually measuring and saying"?

But tea and coffee would be drunk and music would be heard.




Oh, and good luck with the company accounts. In my experience, 95% tedium and 5% expletives.
 
TheFlash said:
Now there's a thing: just imagine a future event where the graph-wielders (no, wait a minute, the insistors-on-graphs as they don't appear to have any of their own) got together with the listeners and pored over graphs and listened to stuff. They might end up agreeing to an amicable parting of the ways: "your graphs tell me nothing about what I'm quite clearly hearing" vs "I'm quite clearly hearing the nothing which my graphs represent".
.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, no graphs need to be generated, because the ones above, posted by @tuga , prove that there is nothing to hear. The graphs illustrate the measurement in a fashion that represents what is happening.
 
chiily said:
That's the thing, no graphs need to be generated, because the ones above, posted by @tuga , prove that there is nothing to hear. The graphs illustrate the measurement in a fashion that represents what is happening.
Click to expand...

So... let me get this straight. The graphs @tuga posted "prove" that no noise can ever reach any streamer via the ethernet cables connected to it in any setup, so therefore the insertion of a network switch into any hifi system can never make any difference to the sound which the streamer and/or DAC contribute to making. Anyone suggesting otherwise either has an overactive imagination or has an exploitative commercial interest in maintaing the illusion. And anyone buying and installing such a switch is to be pitied for their gullibility.

Is that what you think the graphs posted by @tuga tell us?

If you believe this is correct, your work here is done; other threads are crying out for your attention.

If you believe I have misrepresented your understanding then please correct the above. Tracked changes would be lovely. Thanks
 
tuga said:
Author @mansr will confirm but I think the following quote applies:

"Non-linear effects create harmonics of the input frequencies. Any harmonics above the Nyquist frequency will fold back as aliases. Operating at a higher sample rate reduces the amount of such aliasing since less of generated harmonic content then falls above Nyquist."
Click to expand...
The context of that quote was digital effect processors. It does not apply here.
 
TheFlash said:
So... let me get this straight. The graphs @tuga posted "prove" that no noise can ever reach any streamer via the ethernet cables connected to it in any setup, so therefore the insertion of a network switch into any hifi system can never make any difference to the sound which the streamer and/or DAC contribute to making. Anyone suggesting otherwise either has an overactive imagination or has an exploitative commercial interest in maintaing the illusion. And anyone buying and installing such a switch is to be pitied for their gullibility.

Is that what you think the graphs posted by @tuga tell us?

If you believe this is correct, your work here is done; other threads are crying out for your attention.

If you believe I have misrepresented your understanding then please correct the above. Tracked changes would be lovely. Thanks
Click to expand...
:)

It proves that you can't hear the noise, it is too low, not that it can't or does/doesn't propagate.
 
Maybe we should just ask for Amir to provide an imd graph out to 200khz, then people can see how it plummets once there's nothing but insignificant noise on the output of the dac.

If its -120db at 20khz can we guess what it'll be at 100khz? More or less, go on you golden eared unicorn owners, take a guess.
 
davidsrsb said:
They absolutely do. DDR5 has a 0.55V data swing. Great care has to be taken in the simulation and layout of the motherboard is taken to ensure the integrity of this data at microwave frequency data rates.
The tools to do this are VERY expensive.
Click to expand...

It is annoying when people quote out of context. I actually said, “As long as the noise is within limits such that it does not corrupt data or prevent the sending or receiving of data (none of which is really ever an issue), the answer is that computers do not care about noise.”
 
Fourlegs said:
In which which case probably all available DACs are ‘broken’ as you put it. Certainly I have not yet come across one that is immune. (All said as one friend to another because you and I have a peace pact!).
Click to expand...
Probably a marketing and cost decision tbh (or could be incompetence) rather than a design and engineering one. And I would imagine that the number of DACs you've used is a very small percentage of the total available.

Is that fair?
 
chiily said:
:)

It proves that you can't hear the noise, it is too low, not that it can't or does/doesn't propagate.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure one is on the wrong tack looking for audible noise. My suspicion is that what is heard is low levels of IMD in the DAC caused by RF noise getting in the system somewhere before the DAC, noise that is perhaps in the GHz range. Many sniff and scorn at what Rob Watts says but he has been banging on for ages about the audibility of low levels of this distortion and where it occurs. So if any one on here has the necessary kit to measure the distortion (I don’t) then please do contribute but my suspicion that all the noise graphs contributed so far are irrelevant. I suppose that if one wanted to look for the noise and plot on a graph then again a range up to say 5GHz might be appropriate.
 
chiily said:
Probably a marketing and cost decision tbh (or could be incompetence) rather than a design and engineering one. And I would imagine that the number of DACs you've used is a very small percentage of the total available.

Is that fair?
Click to expand...

Yes, probably is fair. Not sure about marketing decisions but probably costs. For sure the number of DACs I’ve used could never include every single DAC available but compared to many people I have had a larger than normal number of DACs in my system from all sorts of manufacturers because of WAVE customers bringing their own DAC to try with my cables. The number of my customers is also quite large now so I do get a lot of information back from them with their own different DACs but obviously this is all at the anecdotal level although it does add informally to the picture.
 
I doubt that there are many DAC designers with access to the expensive RF test equipment needed to actually investigate LAN and RF immunity.
What you are left with is a lot of speculation
 
davidsrsb said:
I doubt that there are many DAC designers with access to the expensive RF test equipment needed to actually investigate LAN and RF immunity.
What you are left with is a lot of speculation
Click to expand...

Agreed, yes and yes. But then as consumers we can use our ears which actually turn out to be quite sensitive to the matters in hand.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top