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New Linn Tonearm - 'Arko' and MC cartridges

I wouldn't believe me but, as you said you didn't think it changed at all, I guess you'd be wrong either way?

I think my position was that it doesn't change much, especially with a typical ~2g-downforce cartridge, and that the large fluctuations in drag caused by signal render any marginal change due to surface velocity (i.e. radius) below the 'noise' threshold.

However I have learned from Craig's reference that once you get up to 5g of downforce it could be worth reassessing as the AES results seem to show increasing, if still small, variation.

I have no intention of returning to that level of downforce though, at least certainly not on my own records.
 
However I have learned from Craig's reference that once you get up to 5g of downforce it could be worth reassessing...I have no intention of returning to that level of downforce though...

Returning?? :0. I think I'm safe in saying I've never been there. Except maybe when my record player said Fisher Price on it.

There are proper Hi-Fi cartridges that track at 5g?
 
Sticking with the thread sub-topic of "Anti-skating, WTF?", starting circa 1965, Dual likely did more to explain things in plain language than any other manufacturer. With the introduction of the automatic Dual 1019 (definitely not your '80s CS505 @Mr. Pig) came a marketing tome that explained the following...

"The Dual 1019 was designed in every aspect for 0.5 gram tracking. This dictated that the bearings in the tonearm pivot had to be well nigh friction-free. (The friction is actually under 0.04 gram.) This added a new dimension to an old problem.

Whenever tonearm bearing friction is less than 12% of tracking force, any stylus mounted in an angled tonearm head tends to run toward the centre of the record. This is caused by friction between stylus and rotating record, and deflects the stylus against the inner groove wall and away for the outer wall. And this is what skating is all about."

Dual called their solution to the skating problem "Tracking-Balance Control" and came up with a device called "Skate-O-Meter", initially as a production tool for quality control of Tracking-Balance Control calibration, as well as being provided as tool to Dual authorized service agents (and also eventually released as accessory). Basically, this is a dial gauge that clips into that period Dual headshell in place of the usual cartridge carrier and contains a 0.7mil conical stylus which was the default stylus tip size and type that the scale on Tracking-Balance Control was calibrated to.

Where this ties in with the discussion of friction, within the 1019 user manual was provided a table of equivalent settings for stylus tips ranging in sizes from 0.4mil to 0.9mil conical, plus 0.2 x 0.9mil elliptical. It is this that mostly explains the friction aspect of skating as the larger the tip size (i.e. contact patch area) the less the friction, and therefore the less the skating force one need compensate for (i.e. less friction due to g/sq mil pressure reduction), with elliptical requiring the highest compensation via having the smallest contact patch.

A couple of others have since produced similar skating gauges, one of which came with an assortment of interchangeable stylus shapes and sizes which prove the friction (and hence amount of skating force) relating to contact patch size aspect.

An interesting side note here is that by the 1970s Dual had shifted their concentric (with the arm pillar) Tracking-Balance Control over to a dedicated Anti-Skating dial with two scales on, one for conical, the other for elliptical, with the manual including columns of alternative lower values for 'wet' play with each tip type. From this it seems obvious that happiness comes with a fat wet one.
 
Where this ties in with the discussion of friction, within the 1019 user manual was provided a table of equivalent settings for stylus tips ranging in sizes from 0.4mil to 0.9mil conical, plus 0.2 x 0.9mil elliptical. It is this that mostly explains the friction aspect of skating as the larger the tip size (i.e. contact patch area) the less the friction, and therefore the less the skating force one need compensate for (i.e. less friction due to g/sq mil pressure reduction), with elliptical requiring the highest compensation via having the smallest contact patch.
Unconvinced about this explanation.

I posted some numbers up thread from which an enterprising GCSE Physicist could estimate the stylus drag, and hence the required anti-skate for a given arm geometry. Must get around to doing this. Cart was an aged Goldring 10-40 with no miles because I didn't like it when I tried it. So that's a fancy stylus cut of some type.

Another interesting approach would be to use a Technics 'strain gauge' or equivalent sold state generator, because they go down to DC, so anti-skate error ccould be directly measured in real time.

And if you want a fight consider the anti-skate requirement of a Thales. Of one of those daft arms with no offset angle.

From this it seems obvious that happiness comes with a fat wet one.
Nolo contendere.
 
Unconvinced about this explanation.

I posted some numbers up thread from which an enterprising GCSE Physicist could estimate the stylus drag, and hence the required anti-skate for a given arm geometry. Must get around to doing this. Cart was an aged Goldring 10-40 with no miles because I didn't like it when I tried it. So that's a fancy stylus cut of some type.

Another interesting approach would be to use a Technics 'strain gauge' or equivalent sold state generator, because they go down to DC, so anti-skate error ccould be directly measured in real time.

And if you want a fight consider the anti-skate requirement of a Thales. Of one of those daft arms with no offset angle.
Yes, I recall you having brought this subject up the other day.

The G1040 has a Van den Hul Type 1 tip, 2 x 85 microns. Not sure how much of that is actual 'contact patch' what with R having curvature, but it has to be a lot. Regardless, among the oft quoted advantages of long contact styli has been reduced record wear owning to spreading the load over a broader area either side.

Speaking of record wear, the relative friction side of different tip dimensions and shapes as they apply to skating force would seem to correlate well with photomicrographic evidence of record wear produced by research teams at RCA research laboratories at Princeton. Particularly interesting are the comparative shots of groove damage from early circa 5g vs modern circa 1.5g loads for 0.7mil conical/spherical vs. 0.2 x 0.7mil elliptical 'point contact' tips respectively. The 0.7mil conical at 1.5g practically does no damage at all. The following article attempts to tie this in with modern research performed on the subject of 'micro-hardness' which has grown out of Hertz' work "concerning the physics of the indention of a hard sphere in an elastic body" from the end of the 19th century...


P.S. As with all overhung pivoting tonearms, the Thales do have offset (EDIT: apparently the Thales 'Easy' maintains near zero offset across the record), only it is dynamic across the record. This was first introduced by P. W. D. BURNE-JONES in the UK way back in 1957 (after his patent from 1953) with the simultaneous introduction of their Standard and Super 90 arms (with 'Standard' shortly thereafter changed to 'Stereo TAN/II' and Super 90 becoming Stereo Super 90 Mk II). No mention of skating bias compensation on these B-J models, so perhaps bearing friction was far enough above 12% of tracking force so as not to matter (just joking, dithering about with skating compensation was yet to become a thing, initially coming with the suggestion to tilt ones deck rightward should Rch distortion be present with the then new lower tracking forces).

P.P.S. I see that Thales themselves cite both B-J's and Garrard's prior work in this area.
 
It is this that mostly explains the friction aspect of skating as the larger the tip size (i.e. contact patch area) the less the friction, and therefore the less the skating force one need compensate for..

Which is great but how are you supposed to know how much is right much? The SoundSmith method , which I think works quite well, has the stylus running on the flat surface of the record, between grooves (Yeah I do know it's one fechin groove). While it seems to work ok it does not take into account different stylus profiles and the differing drag they will have.
 
Which is great but how are you supposed to know how much is right much? The SoundSmith method , which I think works quite well, has the stylus running on the flat surface of the record, between grooves (Yeah I do know it's one fechin groove). While it seems to work ok it does not take into account different stylus profiles and the differing drag they will have.
I don't subscribe to the SoundSmith method at all. For one thing, the contact patch will be somewhat akin to the thinnest line in the article referenced to above, i.e. a very small fraction of what the two scanning sides of a stylus will amount to, therefore, for a given downforce friction will be higher than with larger spread out patches. Then there is some inexactitude as to what AS setting vs. how fast the arm should be allowed to drift inward to compensate. It all smacks of him having set AS according the the tonearm manufacturer's recommendation (possibly less a quarter gram), setting the tip down on a blank, observing what happens, and then claiming epiphany.

Anyway, all is an approximation that reminds me of the old joke about a physicist, a mathematician, and an statistician going deer hunting together.
 
Which is great but how are you supposed to know how much is right much? The SoundSmith method , which I think works quite well, has the stylus running on the flat surface of the record, between grooves (Yeah I do know it's one fechin groove). While it seems to work ok it does not take into account different stylus profiles and the differing drag they will have.

Or, you could just simply adjust -find the best average- until you achieve the best reproduction of the Music/Tune across the entire surface, but if one has no real basis for evaluation I can see the confusion and need for clarification.
 
IME, the best average is found by observing whether the cantilever points slightly inward or outward during play, and adjust AS until it is straight in line with the cartridge body.

The above assumes that one properly aligns their phono cartridge to their tonearm offset (i.e. no cantilever alignment BS when it comes to overhang and offset).

P.S. Anyone who questions this method gets sent a copy of the Dual Skate-O-Matic instructions in the original German. No Google translate allowed and there will be a quiz.
 
Returning?? :0. I think I'm safe in saying I've never been there. Except maybe when my record player said Fisher Price on it.

There are proper Hi-Fi cartridges that track at 5g?

I meant 'returning' as in returning to the stone age ;-)

I think there are some well regarded heavier trackers but I'm not an expert. Some kind of SPU perhaps?
 
Interesting. I find myself somewhat sceptical though, and I wonder what the impact on the record of a spherical tip mistracking is. And it would be interesting to see what the dynamic forces are with the typical stylus masses. That should be ball park calculable.

FWIW I think Thales arms generate skating forces and should be compensated, but I don't see that mechanism is provided.

And we keep the thread on track because the chap who makes Thales makes the new Linn moving coil carts. The Michael Fremer visit to Hifiction AG
has some interesting detail on cartridge manufacturing and generator setup, if not already viewed.
 
I meant 'returning' as in returning to the stone age ;-)

I think there are some well regarded heavier trackers but I'm not an expert. Some kind of SPU perhaps?
Most of the current crop of SPU have a 3.0-5.0g range specified, with 4.0g recommended. Fine for the spherical tips (especially so the ones for early 25µm mono vinyl recordings and 65µm 78s), but I'd fear for my LPs with the r/R 8/18µm ellipticals at 4.0g. Not early Decca fear, but concerned like.
 
Or, you could just simply adjust -find the best average- until you achieve the best reproduction of the Music/Tune across the entire surface, but if one has no real basis for evaluation I can see the confusion and need for clarification.

If you have an arm or cartridge-arm combination which doesn't track very well then you can probably get there by ear. However, if you have an arm that tracks like a lamprey, it can be hard to hear any significant difference as you change bias. The envelope might be too big.

With such an arm it could be argued that the chief benefit of correct bias is seen when you check cantilever straightness every ten hours: it's still straight. If you keep adjusting by half the previous adjustment, after 100 hrs you should be bang on. Of course, according to points made above about contact surface area, correct bias will also reduce with stylus life/wear, not just profile types.
 
I did not know there were cartridges that track at 5g.

I understand there is a thriving vintage market and Ortofon still makes some very expensive SPUs. Some even say that they are the true path to vinyl nirvana. I vaguely recall there may be some other audiophile heavy trackers, and some people even experiment with DJ cartridges designed to keep on trucking through spartan levels of abuse.

In this context I wonder if small variations of required average bias across the record are just a measure of how much vinyl swarf is being liberated with each play. The chisel will sink deeper at the end, just like the powder skier I proposed above, accounting for the AES graph showing a modest inverse drag-radius relationship.
 


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