Ponty
pfm Member
It’s got a long way to go. Mass adoption that is affordable and works properly is pie in the sky. I’m sticking with wood. It’s simple, cheap and works without fail.
Gas and Electricity Prices
- Thread starter gordonscobie
- Start date
It’s got a long way to go. Mass adoption that is affordable and works properly is pie in the sky. I’m sticking with wood. It’s simple, cheap and works without fail.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
It is human nature to resist change, although this is a broad generalisation. There is certainly evidence that some of the people installing heat pumps really don't know what they are doing - I certainly knew more than the firms 'technical expert' which isn't saying much.
There were no calculations for the size of the ground loops.
I was advised I didn't need to change any of my radiators. Having re-worked my own heat loss calculations and cross-referenced with my LPG based boiler's consumption of the 11 I had fitted I replaced 7 and moved two.
I was advised that 60 evacuated tubes were too large for a 300ltr heat store - wrong. This system was wrongly installed from Day One and the firm spent the next two summers not sorting it out. Apparently you have to explain to trained plumbers that a system working at just over 1bar won't work with an expansion vessel operating at 3bar (but then I'm not a trained plumber).
Going back further when we had the kitchen done we installed UFH, the plumber insisted on fitting a dedicated circulating pump on the UFH manifold. Why? Well a good friend of his is a manager at one of the heating supply firms in Aberdeen and he told him that was what was needed!! We later had it removed as it pulled too much water away from the rest of the system.
It isn't fair to tar all trades people with the same brush but the new systems require a different mindset and training is required. Education is also required for the public.
A large amount of the existing housing stock will need a fair amount of work in order for heat pumps to work efficiently and they won't be the answer in all cases.
I do a lot of reading on the subject of increasing house efficiency. It will be interesting to see how the small MHVR system I'll be fitting to the bathroom when I refurbish the space next year will work.
The one thing that does need changing is the 'cost' of gas, it needs loading to reflect the damage its usage has on the environment. Current cost comparisons are not comparing apples with apples.
Regards
Richard
Despite how many times you say it (which is a lot in your case) they're really not. They just need to be deployed in the right circumstances and manner... a bad install in the wrong property will give you the impression they are a waste of time, but if you know and understand the technology and apply it appropriately you will find they work well.
Eyebroughty
JohnC
This is an interesting Households Report on dwellings in England, yes I know it is 3 years old.
The amount of work/trained personal needed to change or amend from existing systems to the latest for a given dwelling must raise cause for concern if Richard's experience above is anything to go by.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/817286/EHS_2017-18_Households_Report.pdf
The amount of work/trained personal needed to change or amend from existing systems to the latest for a given dwelling must raise cause for concern if Richard's experience above is anything to go by.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/817286/EHS_2017-18_Households_Report.pdf
I suspect they're fine for people with more money than sense. £1500 for a highly efficient, cost effective gas boiler to be fitted or £12k plus a complete house renovation for something not guaranteed to work for everyone. Long way to go yet.
gingermrkettle
Deep vein trombonist
Our solar panels and inverter have been in 3 years with absolutely no issues, the panels have a 25 year warranty. Payback on capital outlay is well within the lifespan.
If you have a hot water tank with an immersion heater already an eddi costs a few hundred pounds and is elementary to instal.
simon g
Older, wiser but no longer retired
Heat pump heating works best at maintaining a background heat. A poorly insulated house requires much more energy input to maintain the required temp. Heat pumps are not great at changing their output on demand (to regulate the temp). Instantaneous water heating, a la combi, isn't possible unless other equipment is used.
A ground source heat pump installation is in the £10-£15k area. Not many will have that amount available to spend on replacing a combi, even if they have a property suitable for a ground source heat pump.
Air source might be suitable, at less cost, perhaps.
It's all very well the Gov saying that combis won't be sold after x date, but who's going to pay for their replacement? What if you live in a flat? Move to electric heating? Many household budgets wouldn't support the installation or running costs of electric heating, even if we have the vast increase in electricity generation available to meet the increased demand.
Communal heating systems might be a solution.
More efficient solar panels maybe.
Whatver the solution, it will require massive investment which will mostly have to come from taxation. Yet, I don'tt hear any conversation on that. If it gets to the point where families can't replace their combis and are being told it will cost them potentially £5-10k to use an alternative system that won't work as well, or really be suitable for their home, then those conversations will be 'interesting', in the Chinese sense.
A ground source heat pump installation is in the £10-£15k area. Not many will have that amount available to spend on replacing a combi, even if they have a property suitable for a ground source heat pump.
Air source might be suitable, at less cost, perhaps.
It's all very well the Gov saying that combis won't be sold after x date, but who's going to pay for their replacement? What if you live in a flat? Move to electric heating? Many household budgets wouldn't support the installation or running costs of electric heating, even if we have the vast increase in electricity generation available to meet the increased demand.
Communal heating systems might be a solution.
More efficient solar panels maybe.
Whatver the solution, it will require massive investment which will mostly have to come from taxation. Yet, I don'tt hear any conversation on that. If it gets to the point where families can't replace their combis and are being told it will cost them potentially £5-10k to use an alternative system that won't work as well, or really be suitable for their home, then those conversations will be 'interesting', in the Chinese sense.
simon g
Older, wiser but no longer retired
That's all very well, but how many people will have the necessary capital in the first place? As posed in my previous post, what about those that live in flats? Who don;t own their own place?
There are many, many combi boiler installations that don't have hot water tanks. More cost and disruption. Plus I'm not convinced that heating water, then storing it, is a very energy efficient proposition compared to heating on demand.
Maybe you could stop with the snide comments. Are you a gas fitter (or Russian oligarch) as you really seem to be in denial about gas? It's environmentally damaging and it's finished as a future source of energy for domestic and commercial properties. Deal with it.
A good ASHP installation with UFH in a new build will be less than 50% higher than a gas installation and you will get that back soon enough plus you are helping the environment. BTW £1500 for a gas boiler is not a fitted price unless you use a crap brand and have a cowboy install it. The price for decent one is more like £3500. If you are doing a new build then the prices become even more comparable as UFH costs less than lots of expensive radiators. Yes you need to insulate properly, but so you should... the answer is not to keep building poorly insulated buildings and then burning up fossil fuels to heat them inefficiently. In fact built properly a domestic dwelling should almost need no additional heating whatsoever and that is what we should be looking towards... not harking to past and whining about new technologies when you have no real knowledge of what they can do/how they work.
This is a field I work in so I do properly understand it... how about you?
Heating water and storing it from renewable energy is far more efficient than heating it on demand from environmentally damaging energy. As to flats etc. look up district energy systems, they are the future.
You're right about capital etc. but that has nothing to do with new builds. If I had my way all new builds would need to be close to Passive house (passivhaus) standards and would then be massively energy efficient anyway. Then I'd add a requirement for solar/HP technology where feasible. If we are to tackle climate change then something more than the purely financial cost needs to be taken into account in the building regulations.
gingermrkettle
Deep vein trombonist
Obviously not everyone can afford the capital outlay, but those that can should. And literally every house and building built from now on should have solar panels built in from the start.
Yes, there will be losses in tanks compared to combis but I was comparing gas on demand to stored solar where the energy use can then be maximised. We are getting a Sunamp put in for this soon where the round trip efficiency is much higher than indirect water heating.
Yes, there will be losses in tanks compared to combis but I was comparing gas on demand to stored solar where the energy use can then be maximised. We are getting a Sunamp put in for this soon where the round trip efficiency is much higher than indirect water heating.
There are roof systems that now combine solar energy generators into the roof coverings themselves, an absolutely excellent idea and one I am enjoying working with some manufacturers on obtaining them more funding.
clivem2
pfm Member
A simple boiler swap…should be £2k to £2.5k. This is recent experience with a Worcester boiler.
High levels of insulation are of course important as is eliminating drafts. What about modern hermetically sealed houses…they must need airing if only for smells let alone venting moisture and pollutants…I’m thinking about health here.
How do we manage the switch to green heating? We can’t and mustn’t knock down our pre-2000 housing stock. If we did the carbon cost would be massive. Whilst we should encourage the move to green heating we shouldn’t penalise those for whom it’s not viable.
High levels of insulation are of course important as is eliminating drafts. What about modern hermetically sealed houses…they must need airing if only for smells let alone venting moisture and pollutants…I’m thinking about health here.
How do we manage the switch to green heating? We can’t and mustn’t knock down our pre-2000 housing stock. If we did the carbon cost would be massive. Whilst we should encourage the move to green heating we shouldn’t penalise those for whom it’s not viable.
cooky1257
pfm Member
All this talk of 'new builds';
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/oct/14/carbon-footprint-house
New build 2 bed cottage creates 80 Tonnes of CO2,
"and for all the new-build options, the up-front emissions from construction work were paid back by savings from better energy efficiency in 15–20 years.
However, the winning option was to refurbish the old house, because the carbon investment of doing this was just eight tonnes CO2e, and even the highest-specification newbuild could not catch up this advantage over the 100-year period. Once cost was taken into account, refurbishment became dramatically the most practical and attractive option, too"
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/oct/14/carbon-footprint-house
New build 2 bed cottage creates 80 Tonnes of CO2,
"and for all the new-build options, the up-front emissions from construction work were paid back by savings from better energy efficiency in 15–20 years.
However, the winning option was to refurbish the old house, because the carbon investment of doing this was just eight tonnes CO2e, and even the highest-specification newbuild could not catch up this advantage over the 100-year period. Once cost was taken into account, refurbishment became dramatically the most practical and attractive option, too"
clivem2
pfm Member
Are there new ones which are suitable for conservation areas? The Tesla ones I saw a few years ago looked much more like a traditional roof. The panels most people have today are so fugly.
They are coming, but like anything these things take time to develop, test etc. so that is being initially undertaken with the more modern less aesthetically important coverings. It's quite early days, but making buildings integrate these types of system as part of the build is the way to go.
Yep, but a lot of this is because we are so far behind the curve on the construction methodologies themselves. Sustainability in the actual construction process is only considered for large commercial or residential projects whereas it needs to be extended to all projects and likely will in time. For instance a school project in Wales I was involved with a few years ago was originally projected to need 180 trucks worth of waste material moving off site. What we did was find a way to grade that material on site and re-use it for various parts of the groundworks. This resulted in the delivery to site of one extra machine and the removal of the need for 180 trucks travelling 10s of miles there and back and hundreds of tonnes of landfill.
cooky1257
pfm Member
I don't doubt you but new construction methodologies wont eliminate that 90% gap surely? My general point is for the newer Heating systems to be a real option we need to refurb/insulate the housing stock, its not something we can 'new build' our way out of.