advertisement


Watts aren’t all equal. How to measure an Amplifier’s “Grunt”?

Most live music is listened to at well above 80 dB average. Most recorded music is monitored and processed around these levels. Cinema levels are a bit higher. Etc... Is everybody hearing noise? 80 dB average is roughly the standard level for careful/critical/detailed listening to not just music.

I don't go to live music or the cinema for those reasons.

80db may be the standard level for some but not me, I hear plenty of detail when "critically" listening at lower levels than that.

I only have my phone to use as a sound meter so it won't be very accurate I'm guessing, I'll check my levels later on.
 
Jim,

No, I didn’t measure the amp’s power output, but I have an SPL meter that shows peak volume levels. My typical listening, while sitting on my couch, has peaks around 70db. The speakers are about 2 metres away.

My red disc was made in photoshop using the circular marquee tool and the paint bucket tool set to a pleasing shade of red and opacity at 15%.

Really, at the levels I typically listen, I could power my speakers with my headphone amp. Their sensitivity is about 100db for a watt at a metre.

I would wager that someone with small inefficient speakers powered by a big clean solid state amp has more distortion in practice because the speaker’s midrange driver is pretending to be a woofer.

Joe

Your comment about the 'red disc' answers a different question to the one I had in mind. :) However now you've said you use a peak reading meter, that helps with my intended question/point. How do you know the reading *is* a true peak for the level into the speaker, and is reliable?

That said, yes, it looks like you are avoiding limiting *if* the readings are reliable and *if* the plots of distortion versus power into three resistances of light-bulb for a sinewave can be used for music into your speakers. But that still leaves factors like the way output transformer performance deteriorates for lower frequencies and asymmetric waveforms. Sinewave-into-resistor-at-1kHz is a particularly iffy way to rate the behaviour of many valve power amp designs. And designers can 'target' this, optimising for the 'usual test method' at the expense of other situations - either deliberately or being unaware of the problems.

Have a look at the table on

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/HeadphoneDAC/HeadDAC.html

showing how a small signal transformer's THD varies with frequency as an illustration. That was, of course, a tiny signal transformer used at low current levels. But a similar pattern tends to arise in larger transformers with the distortion rising rapidly as you get to low frequencies unless you have very large transformers. This gets worse for some designs of power amp when there is some LF offsetting the 'balance' of the transformer sections as you play HF.

Again, all that said, the output impedance also varies and affects the result, and this tend to be so even at low powers. Result is a form of 'tone control' that may give a sound someone prefers.

The basic problem here is that although valve amps look simple in design terms, the need for output transformers is a big challenge with very complex behaviours that most users, reviewers, and I suspect designers, don't really take into account. Hence no surprise if they 'sound different'. Simple standard measurements won't show why.
 
FWIW In the past with the soundmeters I've used I tended to get *averaged* weighted levels in the region around 75dB according to the meters I use. That, of course, implies peaks more like 90dB for decent material. Despite one mete being an ancient B&K I'm not sure I trust the calibrations, though, as it is decades since any were calibrated.
 
Jim,

Thanks, I appreciate my posts being put under a scanning electron microscope as much as the next guy, but my point in all this was to say that at the volumes I listen at my Stingray isn’t being pushed to its limits.

Let’s flip this around — what solid state amp would you use with rectangular GRFs with early Monitor Reds?

Joe
 
We could discuss SPLs ad nauseum, but unless we're all using the same meter and weighting then we'll never be sure if we're comparing apples to apples. I've checked the accuracy of my RadioShack digital meter against using a UMIK-1 with REW and they are both consistent, but REW is quicker to respond to peaks than the handheld meter. I also think that both the average and peak levels need to be stated, as one without the other has limited meaning (i.e. a hyper-compressed pop recording that's pegged at 80dB is going to sound a hell of a lot louder than an uncompressed classical or jazz piece that has momentary transients exceeding 90 dB.

To those Fishies who are able to enjoy their hifi systems at average levels in the 50 dBs and peaks in the 70 dBs then fair play to you. I wish my ears were sensitive enough to be able to resolve fine details at those sorts of levels, and I speak as someone who considers himself to have a low pain threshold to noise and generally avoids noisy public environments (earplugs are an absolute must for me when attending any live music event that is PA'd). Each to their own :).
 
Just left the SPL app running on the phone through one side of an LP at what I would call a typical listening level for me, give or take a degree or two on the volume knob. Average was 70 with a peak of 77. This was with the phone closer to the speakers than the listening position by about 18 inches.
 
Matt,

That’s more or less what my meter shows at my typical listening levels. It also measures both peak and continuous levels. I set it to peak when I took and uploaded the picture the other day.

Maybe I’m an odd duck but I wear earplugs when I cut the grass or run the dust sucker over the carpets. No point damaging my hearing with noise.

Joe
 
Overly compressed stuff that's balanced to sound good on sound bars etc is where it sounds nasty to me when the volume goes up too high... just a wall of noise! Wide dynamic range material with a wide and flat frequency range OTOH can often be played really loud and just sounds more and more natural as the volume increases... up to a point of course!

Yup - usually influenced by the room! Many demos at shows play too loud for the bedrooms' size.
 
Jim,

Thanks, I appreciate my posts being put under a scanning electron microscope as much as the next guy, but my point in all this was to say that at the volumes I listen at my Stingray isn’t being pushed to its limits.

Let’s flip this around — what solid state amp would you use with rectangular GRFs with early Monitor Reds?

Joe

My point was that you might just be mistaken in your view that you're not "pushing" your amp. :)

What I'd use wouldn't help much. Partly because they are speakers I've never heard or considered, so I have no idea what I'd prefer. Partly because what suits me might not suit anyone else.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your preference. Just pointing out that you could be wrt assuming it isn't due to any specific effect like clipping/saturation behaviour.

To add what I wrote earlier: Another snag with sound meters is that if they use A-weighting that can booger up attempts to measure *actual* peak levels because the sound is filtered. So in sum, we don't know if your measurements tell us what you assume. Can't tell, either way.
 
Jim,

I listen at levels lower than most with speakers that are much more efficient than most. I don’t see how the Stingray is being pushed under these conditions, but as no one trusts my SLP meter and I have no other equipment to measure the system I really don’t know what I can add to this discussion.

Joe
 
Jim,

I listen at levels lower than most with speakers that are much more efficient than most. I don’t see how the Stingray is being pushed under these conditions, but as no one trusts my SLP meter and I have no other equipment to measure the system I really don’t know what I can add to this discussion.

Joe
As a long time tube amp user i agree with you. I only switched to SS when fate brought about a change from Quad ESLs to inefficient planar magnetic panels.

Like most audiophile forums, this place is a tough room. Its full of electrical engineers and retired physics professors who, of course, know EVERYTHING better than you. Unless you are PROPERLY educated and speak the same jargon, you are likely to be ostracized.
 
Cheers, Dimitry.

I have a lot of respect for scientists and engineers. I am neither, but I have worked with them for the past two decades. (If anyone spends ten minutes in the off-topic room they would know I’m clearly a believer in science and what it coupled with engineering can achieve.)

I have to say this thread is weird. I provided a bit of evidence — imperfect as it was — that I don’t listen at loud levels on speakers known to be *very* efficient. I even cranked up the system to stupidly loud levels, and it could have gone louder still, to take another measurement to show that the system can do trouser flapping if necessary.

After all this some are still wondering if my Stingray is being pushed at the levels I *typically* listen at. I don’t know what to say other than that seems very unlikely.

Joe
 
Cheers, Dimitry.

I have a lot of respect for scientists and engineers. I am neither, but I have worked with them for the past two decades. (If anyone spends ten minutes in the off-topic room they would know I’m clearly a believer in science and what it coupled with engineering can achieve.)

I have to say this thread is weird. I provided a bit of evidence — imperfect as it was — that I don’t listen at loud levels on speakers known to be *very* efficient. I even cranked up the system to stupidly loud levels, and it could have gone louder still, to take another measurement to show that the system can do trouser flapping if necessary.

After all this some are still wondering if my Stingray is being pushed at the levels I *typically* listen at. I don’t know what to say other than that seems very unlikely.

Joe

FWIW In my opinion your amp is just ticking over at the volumes you listen at:)
 
Keep enjoying you great amp! I would probably have Manley or VTL if i stayed with tubes.

I am an engineer, but a "wrong" kind (aerospace, not electrical), so i was consistently belittled and rediculed in previous threads.

Perhaps one could consider this a life lesson - after all we JUST interact with these folks virtually. A blessing, really.
 
Cheers, dudes.

When I turned up the wick for that second measurement — ~106db from the couch — my stomach became a second set of ears. If you’ve been to a rock concert you’ll know what I’m talking about — that point when the sound level becomes visceral.

And even at that level the Stingray had some juice left. If you work through the GRF’s sensitivity figure (101db/watt at a metre) and the amp’s output (~30 watts per channel in UL mode) I should be able to hit ~115db.

Joe
 
Don't stress about it Joe, my earlier reading was a tad high I think, sat here now in the quiet of the evening with a drink inside me and the average SPL is down to about 67db with peaks at 76 according to the phone and it sounds completely realistic- bass is where it should be, I get all the imaging and spacial things happening, detail etc is all there, it's just not rattling my windows or annoying my downstairs neighbour.
 
Matt,

Cheers, I’m not stressing about it. I’m a rather chill dude most of the time.

I was more confused how anyone could think I was pushing the Stingray to its limits given my speakers and typical listening levels.

If I had Royd Sorcerers and an original Nait I could see the possibility easily, but GRFs with a Stingray...

Joe
 
FWIW I also think what you've posted indicates you're not pushing your amp.

However, Werner's post on page 1 has an explanation of why the valve amp would sound different (for you better) that isn't about soft clipping or level.

This was also the late Arny K's view, although to my mind it doesn't explain all of the differences I hear with valve amps. Of course, my impression could simply be mistaken.
 


advertisement


Back
Top