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Watts aren’t all equal. How to measure an Amplifier’s “Grunt”?

Joe P said:
Dimitry,

The Stingray has a tape monitor loop so I could add an outboard tone control or equalizer easily. I would be willing to go a bit more upscale. Any recommendations?

Joe
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I'm not sure of the secondhand price, but my first reaction was to suggest putting an old QUAD 34 into the tape loop of your amp. The bass lift/cut control of this is a quick way to assess the effect of a low bass boost/cut. It is a design that is easily tweaked. And can also be sold on without much loss if you decide to look for something better. As a test, it may help you to decide what to do next. Helps avoid the risk of buying something more specialised and expensive, only to decide it isn't what you're after.

Personally, I think it a shame that tone controls came to be regarded as 'bad', because in my experience well-designed ones can be very useful.
 
Cheers, Jim.

The Quad 34 would be interesting to try but I have no spare shelves on my audio rack / alter of electronics.

Da shit might do the trick and it’s small enough dat it might fit.

Joe / Dr Seuss
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
Having had a quick look at what is said about the Schiit loki it looks quite interesting. Do they have a UK agent?
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Yes, https://schiit.eu.com/about_us
Great to deal with IME, only drawback is they don't hold a lot of stock and the stock they do get in is sold very quickly so you either need to time it well or else be prepared to wait a while until new stock arrives. If you're interested in a Loki I'd suggest you drop Mark Dolbear an email to express interest and find out when more stock is due in.
 
I've sent them an email. :) FWIW I probably don't want one for my own use as I'm happy enough using 34's I modify to suit my specific preferences. However if I can find out more about the Loki tone controls I'd be better placed to tell others about it when they might find it useful. Being an injuneer, 'find out more' tends to mean understanding more detail how it works, performs, etc... 8-]
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
I've sent them an email. :) FWIW I probably don't want one for my own use as I'm happy enough using 34's I modify to suit my specific preferences. However if I can find out more about the Loki tone controls I'd be better placed to tell others about it when they might find it useful. Being an injuneer, 'find out more' tends to mean understanding more detail how it works, performs, etc... 8-]
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If it wasn't for my CP I'd be interested in one too, - the controls would unfortunately be too fiddly for me. Long before my system was computer-based and before I was aware of 'chain transparency' I used a Technics SH-8065 33-band graphic EQ which provided lots of fine tuning but was a PITA if you wanted to adjust it on a regular basis or shared a house with a mischievous sod who would mess up the settings to annoy you! Once I got my Pioneer SX-1250 and Yamaha CR-2020 I no longer needed an analogue EQ as the SX-1250 provided two bass and treble controls (centred at 50Hz, 100Hz, 10kHz and 20kHz), while the CR-2020 provided bass, mid and treble controls plus a variable loudness knob that did a great job at preserving the Fletcher-Munson curve as you lowered the volume. Nowadays I just enable a parametric EQ plugin in my playback software if I need to make any tonal adjustments. Do keep us posted on how you get on with the Loki if you get one, as I'm curious to know how transparent it really is :).
 
Joe P said:
Some EQ measurement of the Schitt Loki courtesy of super best audio friends, which sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon from the 1970s.

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-loki-eq-measurements.5153/

Joe
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Thanks for that. :)

One of my key curios wrt the behaviour is the channel matching of the eq effects. Many years ago when I experimented with modding the QUAD 34's bass lift I kept finding this upset the stereo imaging. *Until* I ensured the effect was closely matched on the two channels.

I'm not certain why this was so, but my guess is that at LF even a small change to the amount of lift in such an EQ has a distinct effect on the group delay vs frequency. in effect time-offsetting the two signals at LF if the EQ isn't well matched between channels. Alas, people rarely even mention figures for this when it comes to tone controls. I've wondered if this contributed to them getting a 'bad name'.
 
Jim,

The Loki is certainly cheap enough that it’s worth trying as an experiment for me or a thing to test more extensively for you.

Of course, the cost of a stereo pair of interconnects is going to bankrupt me, but if I’m going to do this I had better do it right.

Joe
 
If you want to spend a fortune, here are two options —

Manley Stereo Pultec EQP-1A (I think it's meant to be used in pro audio applications)
https://www.manley.com/pro/speq
Price: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._labs_speq_enhanced_stereo_pultec_eqp1_a.html

Accuphase Digital Voicing Equalizer DG-58
http://www.accuphase.com/model/dg-58.html
Price: Makes the Manley one look cheap

Maybe it's worth running a separate thread on EQs, traditional and digital. I can't be the only person considering one.

Joe
 
Joe P said:
I'm seriously considering a Leben CS-300 just so I can have a bass booster knob. At my listening levels, a bit of bass would compensate nicely where the ear isn't so sensitive.
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One thing that’s just occured to me if you are finding your system a bit too lean sounding... have you still got some of your kit on Mana? If so try it on a bog standard wood table or even the floor just as an experiment. I’ve never looked back for a second after ditching mine. For the naysayers; yes, it does make a difference, yes, I can blind-test it, and yes I don’t like what it does (especially with valve amps). Worth a go anyway as its free to try and you could maybe still get some cash for it if you find removing it improves matters.

PS I can’t imagine ever wanting to boost the bass here! I have a huge full sound, if anything I’d like to cut it on some modern pop recordings (rap, R&B etc) as it can be a little overpowering, though jazz, classical and most other things sounds right. Any really fat sounding CDs tend to get played upstairs on the 149s as they can actually benefit from modern ‘small speaker’ mastering! FWIW I hardly ever used the tone controls on my Quad 34, a recording had to be hopelessly wrong to need it and for me the ‘clicks’ were rather too severe. I certainly didn’t get on with the ‘tilt’ control as usually the last thing I’d want to do is to boost the bass on an overly bright CD or vice versa. I just used the filters and bass-cut, but exceptionally infrequently.
 
Tony,

I have two pieces of Mana — a thingy the Stingray sits on and a phase one stand for the turntable.

images


The tonal issue is I think related to the levels I listen at. I have no complaints at higher volume levels, but that’s not where I usually listen.

Joe
 
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