advertisement


Corbyn sceptics, what do you think of him now (part II)?

ks.234 said:
And what's wrong with that?

Are we not permitted a nuanced attitude to Europe. Do we have to be uncritical, flag waving Europhiles or Rabid Leavers?

Can't we be critical of the EU but feel very strongly that the benefits outweigh the faults, can't we believe that, on balance, we would be far worse off out of Europe?

Can we not have a considered point of view?

Can we not come to a conclusion based on a balance of evidence?

Are we so simple minded that we get confused if our politicians consider both sides of an issue?



Are we only capable of following 'conviction' politics?
Click to expand...

It was a conviction politics referendum . The Brexit team would stop at nothing to get labour voters to vote leave . Thats why the painted the bus red and put the NHS lie on the side. To confuse the unengaged . Corbyn's refusal to take part in TV interviews or share a platform with Cameron and his 7 out of 10 comment sent a load and clear message . I don't care how you vote.
 
jont said:
It was an in out referendum, your comments on this sounds very much like the lib dem position, (keep having a vote until you get the vote you like) the electorate was clear about how it felt about the lib dem position on that during the GE.
Your stance on this is what makes politics and politicians so untrustworthy and devisive in the publics conscience. Playing the long game overturning the vote by means foul or fair.... look back at your comments..
Chuka umuuna was upfront and honest and open to scrutiny, even though many might agree or disagree with what he did.
And how would a second referendum be more democratic than the first as you suggest, it's a very twisted logic....!! if the vote was to remain and the leave vote was trying to undermine it in the way your suggesting, you would be the first person up in arms complaining saying it was undemocratic and that's what's so transparent (yet you fail to see it) and frustrating about your comments. It really is time for people who take this position too move on.
Click to expand...

Your absolutely right. It was indeed an In Out referendum. It was black and white, Yes or No. In or Out. The Ballot paper was clear; Remain or Leave. No other options. No compromise.

But that’s not what we’ve got.

What we’ve got is a third option, what we've got is negotiation.

I’d have some respect for the Leave position if we did just that; Leave. The Remainers would argue that we’ll be a lot worse off and the Leavers would say, "Oh no we won’t, just you wait and see". We Remainers would then have little democratic choice but to mutter under our breath and do just that, wait and see.

But we’re not leaving, we’re negotiating, and ‘Negotiate’ was not on the ballot paper. If it was, there would've been a whole heap of questions that needed answering before that option could be considered, and considered carefully before the vote.

But it was deemed that such consideration would be too difficult for us, so we went with the simple In Out option.

All sides now seem to accept the need for negotiation. But negotiation was not there for consideration at the Referendum.

If we now accept the need for negotiation we also accept that a range of possible outcomes are likely. Not black and white, not In or Out, but a complex range of possible options that will no doubt end up in a messy compromise somewhere in between Remain or Leave that will satisfy neither.

The result will not be In or Out, Yes or No, Black or White, it'll be a compromise. One that no one, not least Leavers, will be happy with, and one that no one will have voted for.

If we were just going to Leave, if we were just going to pay the price and just go, I'd have to accept it. I wouldn't like it, but I'd have to accept the democratic process that lead to that decision. One of the two options on the ballot paper would have been respected and there would be no need and no justification for a Second Referendum.

But if we now accept the need for negotiation, we have introduced and accepted a third option that was not part of the referendum, an option that has no democratic mandate.

Therefore, as a matter of democracy, we must now have a vote on the outcome of these negotiations.
 
ks.234 said:
But that’s not what we’ve got.

What we’ve got is a third option, what we've got is negotiation
Click to expand...

So are you saying we should have left the EU and pretended that they didn't exist? No travel, no trade? No communication? As soon as you accept that you still want to sell them 'stuff', and buy 'stuff' from them, there are bound to be negotiations. There's more to getting divorced that saying "I'm divorcing you".
 
Stunsworth said:
There's more to getting divorced that saying "I'm divorcing you".
Click to expand...

Even if you say it three times :D

But yes, I agree, there can't be many people who thought it was a matter of sending a letter to the boss, picking your toys up and walking away.
 
Storm in a teacup. On the Daily Politics, just now, even Stephen Kinnock (one of Corbyn's harshest critics) was broadly supportive of the main front bench amendment (as opposed to Chukka Ummuna's) and the sacking of the front benchers who voted against the whip.
 
Stunsworth said:
So are you saying we should have left the EU and pretended that they didn't exist? No travel, no trade? No communication? As soon as you accept that you still want to sell them 'stuff', and buy 'stuff' from them, there are bound to be negotiations. There's more to getting divorced that saying "I'm divorcing you".
Click to expand...

I voted remain.
 
Tony L said:
I'm not sure that is quite correct. To my mind, and speaking as a long-term Lib Dem voter, I'm sure a lot of us were so repulsed by the sheer arrogance, corruption and incompetence of the Tory government and grasped the only real anti-Tory vote was Labour. There are a few seats in the country where it makes sense to vote Lib Dem, but mine certainly isn't one of them. I voted Labour to stop pig-headed Tory austerity and to soften their impending Brexit disaster. I still fully support the Lib Dem's stance on Brexit, I just couldn't afford to waste a vote in what is a hopelessly stacked and biased system. All one can really do under our political system at present is to vote tactically against the Tories, anything else has no more value than spoiling the paper!
Click to expand...

It's been a pretty toxic position for the Lib Dem party and it has affected their vote, by not voting for them affects them even more as a credible party.
They have flatlined in most of the polls and the second referendum issue has not
Resonated with voters.
Regarding Brexit.... JC position hasn't changed, he was always a Euro Skeptic. How Brexit finally looks I believe will be down too what mind set the European Union negotiators go in with, (we already know the Tory mindset) If they play hard then I think this will ultimately run the risk of playing into Maybots hands, and make it easier for them to walk away with no deal saying they are impossible to negotiate with and we can't get a fair deal for the UK
They will simply exclaim see that's why we wanted out of Europe and there will be your hard Brexit.
 
droodzilla said:
Storm in a teacup. On the Daily Politics, just now, even Stephen Kinnock (one of Corbyn's harshest critics) was broadly supportive of the main front bench amendment (as opposed to Chukka Ummuna's) and the sacking of the front benchers who voted against the whip.
Click to expand...

Given Kinnock's views on immigration, I'm not surprised he supports Corbyn on this. Storm in a teacup? Possibly this time. But Labour is almost as divided on this as the Tories, and it's not just a left/right split either.
 
Vinniemac said:
Given Kinnock's views on immigration, I'm not surprised he supports Corbyn on this. Storm in a teacup? Possibly this time. But Labour is almost as divided on this as the Tories, and it's not just a left/right split either.
Click to expand...
True. There might be a bust-up about Brexit in the Labour Party one day, but this isn't it.
 
droodzilla said:
Storm in a teacup. On the Daily Politics, just now, even Stephen Kinnock (one of Corbyn's harshest critics) was broadly supportive of the main front bench amendment (as opposed to Chukka Ummuna's) and the sacking of the front benchers who voted against the whip.
Click to expand...

Yes good point. Chukka shouldn't have done it . It was little more than a a bit of a wheeze . At the same time had Corbyn treated it as such and let it go we wouldn't be talking about it and nether would the tory press. More poor judgment from the Dear Leader ?
 
merlin said:
True.

Historically the Beeb has been portrayed as having a left wing bias but, in this century we've undoubtedly seen a coup.

I traditionally relied on the Beeb too but now I find it quite shocking in it's portrayal of politics in particular. Just widen your horizons with something equally biased to the left. That's what I try to do.

It seems a shame that I can no longer use the BBC as a reliable source of news. They built a reputation over decades and appear to have fatally damaged it in less than a decade.
Click to expand...


Tony L said:
It is only the BBC news and current affairs that have been infiltrated by Tory power-brokers and activists, the rest of the station's output remains far more balanced and sensible.
Click to expand...

The BBC has traditionally carried a left-wing bias, but as I remember this infuriated the Cameroons so much in the previous two elections that they threatened it with the loss of the licence fee. The BBC was 'bought' with the retention of the fee, and has since been considered to be more pro-Tory than before, though as other posters have pointed out, both left and right seem to believe that the beeb is biased against them.
 
Rosie said:
Yes good point. Chukka shouldn't have done it . It was little more than a a bit of a wheeze . At the same time had Corbyn treated it as such and let it go we wouldn't be talking about it and nether would the tory press. More poor judgment from the Dear Leader ?
Click to expand...
He would have been criticised for being weak if he hadn't sacked the front-bench rebels (collective responsibility dictates they had to go). Some people will criticise him whatever he does.
 
eternumviti said:
The BBC has traditionally carried a left-wing bias, but as I remember this infuriated the Cameroons so much in the previous two elections that they threatened it with the loss of the licence fee. The BBC was 'bought' with the retention of the fee, and has since been considered to be more pro-Tory than before, though as other posters have pointed out, both left and right seem to believe that the beeb is biased against them.
Click to expand...
Seanm nailed it earlier. The BBC is *culturally* left/liberal but its news and current affairs output has never been biased in favour of the left (I'm old enough to remember its reporting of the miners strike). Arguably, it's now skewed to the right although I think the recent election result has forced it to rethink its position. So, for example, the idea of a centre-left programme being popular with the electorate can no longer be airily dismissed as a pipe-dream.
 
droodzilla said:
He would have been criticised for being weak if he hadn't sacked the front-bench rebels (collective responsibility dictates they had to go). Some people will criticise him whatever he does.
Click to expand...

Corbyn said he would tolerate disagreement with the party line and he didn't. Chukka , a back bencher picked a fight and Corbyn let him. That is not leadership .
 
eternumviti said:
The BBC has traditionally carried a left-wing bias, but as I remember this infuriated the Cameroons so much in the previous two elections that they threatened it with the loss of the licence fee. The BBC was 'bought' with the retention of the fee, and has since been considered to be more pro-Tory than before, though as other posters have pointed out, both left and right seem to believe that the beeb is biased against them.
Click to expand...

It may have had decades ago, but today the simple fact is it is full of people with well known and established links to the Tory party. Nck Robinson is the most obvious, he has lived a lifetime of full-on Conservative activism that goes back to his school days, but drill down on the other's and you will find party connections, e.g. David Dimbleby is Bullingdon Club. UK journalism is a very narrow thing with the vast majority following the same elitist private school/Oxbridge education through intern to journalist career path. This is just the journalists, next you want to have a look at the board of directors, BBC Trust etc. At present it is riddled with ex-Tories and very little balancing voices. As I keep on saying I want nothing more than to argue the BBC case as I'm a huge fan and would happily pay twice the licence fee for a genuinely trustworthy and challenging news stream that matched the quality of the arts, music and science coverage of the organisation. In recent years that has been very hard to do.

PS We have several ex-BBC folk here who I am certain could backup what I am saying here.
 
droodzilla said:
He would have been criticised for being weak if he hadn't sacked the front-bench rebels (collective responsibility dictates they had to go). Some people will criticise him whatever he does.
Click to expand...

I'm just thinking of how he managed to resonate with so many young voters, which was so good to see. Many of them would have voted Remain, as they saw the Leave vote as their future being taken away from them. To see him trying to get Labour to back a hard Brexit must be bitterly disappointing for them.

TBH this is one reason why in the end I didn't vote Labour. I had a concern in the back of my mind that Corbyn would do something like this.

Maybe he is playing the long game, but the problem with that is that you may run out of time before permanent and irreparable damage has been done.
 
It is called Party Politics for a reason. When the Government is on the ropes is not the time for individuals in opposition to express dissent.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top