Rwanda

[ks.234]

Rwanda is starting to look quite attractive. Damp dull grey windy fascist Little England with its rivers of shit and oligarch rule, or nice warm sunny Rwanda? I’m tempted to get a ticket.

This reminds me of a story I heard on a history podcast. In the 16c some Ottomans sailed up the Thames and took a few people into slavery. A Decade or so latter Elizabeth sent one of her Admirals (Hawkins??) to rescue them. However, but that time most of the slaves had converted to Islam and were enjoying a nice standard of living; one of them was in charge of running the province of Algiers.

Elizabethan England was not a great place to live for common sorts and when Hawkins arrived to ‘rescue’ them they all said “you’re alright mate” and elected to stay put

 

[Mick P]

Why would you continue to vote for a party that does this then? Surely, this, and the many other atrocities they have caused is enough for any even just 'reasonable' moral and ethical compass to say enough is enough?

Your son is canvassing for the Conservatives no?, therefore, would not be in direct support of their policies, would you not just leave the party or not do the work in protest of something as shameful, as you say, as this?

I am not voting for anyone in the national election unless the Tories revert to true Toryism like greased lightening.

 

[kensalriser]

Yes.

If you really wanted to curtail immigration, the best way to do it would be to raise wages.

At present we are creating a low wage economy and trying to prevent people coming in to fulfil those low paid jobs.

Madness.

Posh boy cruelty is the only purpose

You've misunderstood the computation here. This government has systematically and deliberately provided the cheap immigrant labour businesses want (the Johnson government even passed a law to make it legal for immigrants to be paid less) while at the same time railing against refugees as political propaganda to exploit the ill-will. It's a win-win as far as they're concerned.

 

[stevec67]

I am not voting for anyone in the national election unless the Tories revert to true Toryism like greased lightening.

What's your version of True Toryism Mick? Is it One Nation Ted Heath, or is it She Who May Not Be Named smash the unions, close the steel mills and coal mines and sod them if they can't afford to buy milk for the kids?

 

[Mike Hughes]

these people so just let them

There are two issues of fundamental importance here.

One is about an approach to immigration where we have no process for counting official migrants let alone others. That allows a narrative to exist where a problem can be claimed where none may exist. This is allied to the political corruption of the Home Office and a point blank refusal to put any more into processing claims. This then feeds into the “there’s definitely a problem“ narrative because there are massive processing delays and most assume that’s because the number of applicants is massive when there’s no evidence of that. Processing delays are because a government which processes in a timely manner will see significant percentages correctly granted legal status. That won’t do politically so,where processing takes place, it often does so without due regard to the law, case law or guidance. That in turn allows the right wing press to claim a compassionate approach is being taken because they highlight anomalies which then get dealt with properly but with neither transparency nor accountability.

The thing to remember is that almost all voters want nothing to do with the policy or it’s forcing through visa law which allows the pretence that a country is safe because we invented a law which say it is. The reason we have all this is because Tory members want it and, where they live in the UK at all, they live in the SE. Where is the alleged boat problem? The SE.

Allied to this and of equal seriousness is the disregard for the law. Legislating to bypass the Supreme Court would be a concern in isolation but when you understand that we have literally invented a law to change facts/the truth then the claim of the party introducing this to be the “party of law and order” falls apart. The same law also attempts to remove legal scrutiny and challenge. There is no way to dress these things up as anything other than anti-democratic.

These problems start with the othering of people across a border. Thus my use of the quote above. There is no “these people” pr “they”. They are us.

 

[Mick P]

What's your version of True Toryism Mick? Is it One Nation Ted Heath, or is it She Who May Not Be Named smash the unions, close the steel mills and coal mines and sod them if they can't afford to buy milk for the kids?

I don't want to get involved in a long winded political discussion because with the amount of time I got left I would rather be well away from a PC. So I am soon about to pop out for lunch but to quickly answer your question, I admired Cameron more than any other PM, Churchill excluded of course.

I also admired Thatcher and Blair.

 

[Mike Hughes]

I don't want to get involved in a long winded political discussion because with the amount of time I got left I would rather be well away from a PC. So I am soon about to pop out for lunch but to quickly answer your question, I admired Cameron more than any other PM, Churchill excluded of course.

I also admired Thatcher and Blair.

So your admiration for corrupt fools has no clearly defined limit as yet then?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I am not voting for anyone in the national election unless the Tories revert to true Toryism like greased lightening.

The enduring problem with this approach, though, is that having Tory led councils means having local Tory councillors, which means having a local Tory Association, led by the sort of people who then go on to select people like Rees Mogg, Gove, Patel, Braverman, Johnson, Raab, Hancock, and all the other grotesques as their Parliamentary candidates. If the local party associations didn't select such hateful, incompetent candidates, we'd not be in quite such a godawful mess. And the only way to change that is to let the party wither and die, and the local associations die with it.

 

[Fatmarley]

I wonder if any Tory PFM'er will comment and justify why they support a party that does such a thing...

You'd be surprised. I just got banned from an airgun forum for sticking up for immigrants. Lots of people suggesting we blow them out of the water or let them drown etc.

 

[Beobloke]

At least there is no debate about where the Tories stand. They choose this at a point when the NHS is in crisis, school roofs are falling in, our rivers are quite literally full of shit, our transport collapsing, cost of living spiralling and social care and homelessness a national embarrassment.

Agreed. My wife was also ranting at the television last night to wonder why Sunak choose to fast-track this abomination through government when he could have been fast-tracking the pardons of all the sub-postmasters whose lives were ruined by the Horizon scandal.

 

[stevec67]

Agreed. My wife was also ranting at the television last night to wonder why Sunak choose to fast-track this abomination through government when he could have been fast-tracking the pardons of all the sub-postmasters whose lives were ruined by the Horizon scandal.

Yes, yes, but brown people! In boats! Coming over here!

 

[Finnegan]

I’m not implying the EU is perfect, but the Tory party are very clearly worse and sit next to LePen, AFD and other far-right disruptors in the grouping.

The cold hard indisputable fact is the Tory Party are trying to remove us from international human rights legislation. Legislation which still protects citizens within the EU.

PS Do you have more or less human rights and civil liberties now or before 14 years of Tory rule and their far-right Brexit project? The answer could not be more clear.

Sadly Mick is correct. The 2016 EU deal with Türkiye to accept 1000’s of refugees from Greece in return for increased travel in the EU for Turkish citizens, and an implied nod towards enhancing Turkish membership of the EU rendered the EU as amongst the biggest people trafficking organisations in the world.

In 2016 the EU instructed the Italian government to discontinue Operation Mare Nostrum that saw the Italian navy rescue asylum seekers sailing across the Mediterranean from Libya, leaving hundreds to drown.

Prior to 2023 my abiding image of the EU was the little drowned body of two year old Syrian Alan Kurdi washed up on a Turkish beach in 2015- a direct consequence of Fortress Europe. That was superseded by last year’s death of 500 refugees, abandoned by Greek coastguards to enforce Fortress Europe.

 

[Roog]

Morally wrong, unworkable and ludicrously expensive. What's not to like, everything about it!

 

[ks.234]

I am not voting for anyone in the national election unless the Tories revert to true Toryism like greased lightening.

What is true Toryism?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

More to the point, what is greased lightening?

 

[brumjam]

Deservedly the most recommended comment in the Guardian today:

Natalie Bennett (Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle) in the House of Lords at midnight last night:

My Lords, I rise with a heavy heart, given the lack of further amendment, to this dreadful, international law-busting Bill. I note that in the other place, the SNP twice used procedural Motions to delay it by 15 minutes each time. I applaud them for that, and I am not going to take up the same length, but I am going to take a moment to mark this historic occasion.
Your Lordships’ House has put a lot of work into trying to make the Bill comply with international law, with basic moral laws and with the principles of justice and fairness. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, earlier today said:

“Its costs will be measured not only in money but in principles debased—disregard for our international commitments, avoiding statutory protections for the vulnerable, and the removal of judicial scrutiny”.

Nothing has changed in the Bill in the last few hours.
I note that Amnesty International this evening warned airline companies that many members of the public take an extremely negative view of the content of the policy. Those were really unnecessary words, because no company of any repute whatsoever is going to take part in implementing this dreadful policy. That is a measure of the Bill and the disgraceful, despicable actions it represents.
I am disappointed to see the almost empty Benches around me. I note that the Liberal Democrat Benches are here, having played their part in trying to stop the Bill at Second Reading, and I commend them for that action that the Green group supported. They are still here to the bitter end.
We heard from the Minister, we will hear tonight, and no doubt will keep hearing in the coming days that “Well, we’re the unelected House”. That does not mean that this House is without moral or legal responsibilities. I have asked the House a number of times: if not now, when? What will it take to make this House say, “Here we take a stand”?
We have had the abomination of the Elections Act, the elements of a policing Act that targeted Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people explicitly. We have had multiple indefensible restrictions on the right to protest. Now, we are letting through an attack on some of the most vulnerable, desperate people on this planet. What more will we let through? I suggest to noble Lords as they leave this Chamber tonight to ask themselves that question.
With a desperate, flailing government party bereft of ideas and philosophy and without principles, this House will keep being tested. I ask these empty Benches: you might be waiting for an election, but what kind of a country will it be if you do not stand up now?

 

[Tony L]

That is superb. Nail on head stuff.

PS In any sane country there should be riots now. This is a total abuse of power and the Tories need removal by force if necessary. They have no mandate or support for this far-right racist authoritarian shit.

 

[Mike Reed]

So your admiration for corrupt fools

Maggie has been accused of many things, but I'm not aware that corruption was one. She was certainly no fool, either. Strange accusation or puerile outburst?

what is greased lightening?

Duckham's for performance vehicles maybe?

I cannot understand how so many boats (and today's had over 100 occupants) can be launched, let alone how the numbers of awaiting people plus the smuggling organisers can continue undetected for so long on a relatively short stretch of coast.

We've been paying the French to beef up their surveillance over years in many ways. With drones now capable of pin-pointing enemy positions on the battlefield, how come they are not able to detect gatherings and departures, let alone boat storage areas. So much money spent on this and weird overseas vetting encampments (i.e. Ruanda), surely most of these boat departures could've been severely curtailed or virtually eliminated.

How many are asylum seekers/refugees and how many simply economic migrants? I believe the Albanian example of the latter was successfully dealt with.

 

[Mike Hughes]

Maggie has been accused of many things, but I'm not aware that corruption was one. She was certainly no fool, either. Strange accusation or puerile outburst?

Then allow me to elaborate to a small degree. I am party to a very specific story concerning Thatcher and a couple of living lords. It involves a story which did hit the media and which involved the legal system but in which it turns out all was not as it seemed.

I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the story as it comes from a 100% reliable source and, as they have exercised their discretion, so shall I exercise mine. I have little doubt that it’s a story which will emerge if at all then long after I am dead but, having heard it explained at length and in considerable depth, and then confirmed by two other parties, the only words which spring to mind are “cover up” and “corruption”. I’m sorry I’m unable to elaborate and fully aware how naff that appears so feel free to disregard, ridicule or whatever.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

If the local party associations didn't select such hateful, incompetent candidates, we'd not be in quite such a godawful mess. And the only way to change that is to let the party wither and die, and the local associations die with it.

You mean this approach?

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”​