Bananahead
pfm Member
Well done Max
The 2024 Formula One Season
- Thread starter cutting42
- Start date
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
I’ve been watching longer that that and I’ve never seen a package this superior. Not just the performance, but the reliability. A failure out in front was not common but did happen in the days you refer to. You don’t really find out where a driver ultimately is, unless there is a contest. Max is a great driver but as you point out, he is winning at a canter, never needs to even push a bit. Definitely no ‘hammer time’ ever needed. Superb concentration but no threat beyond a tricky start occasionally.
Glad you find it exciting. I would take the second half of 2021 any day, which was genuinely the best racing I’ve ever seen. The fact that the other teams have lagged so far behind RB’s incredible achievement is certainly not their fault but it is regrettable to me. I admire it, but choosing between that and the rugby was not difficult and usually I’d record the match all other things being equal. Not sure what effect it will have on less committed audiences.
You're right about the reliability, but you say you don't get to find out how good a driver is unless there's a contest... that's just it there is no contest as Perez (who is no slouch) is just made to look like a rank amateur next to Verstappen... outside of Hamilton and Alonso I don't think there is anyone on the grid who can get close to Max in equal machinery and I don't think those two would either right now simply as they are both nearing the end of their careers.
As much as I enjoyed 2021 the finale leaves a bitter taste in the mouth...not because Hamilton didn't win, but because the rules were not applied properly in what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport... who won/lost is somewhat irrelevant in the midst of all that. My favourite seasons are 1986, 1988, 1989, 2000, 2007 and 2010... some great racing and at least two drivers taking it down to the wire.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Yes sorry of course I didn’t mean the final race debacle - I agree with you. But the races leading up to it with the two of them pushing cars to the limit and forcing each other into small errors which suddenly mattered. It was exhilarating, but the hopes of more of the same soon melted with the combination of Red Bull’s design excellence and that dog of a car that Mercedes have produced.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Incidentally, it explains Lewis’s move to Ferrari. I don’t think he would have left Toto and the team if he felt there was any chance that car would be competitive. A last chance type of move which may not work out, but he obviously feels there is more chance that Ferrari will make progress on a car than staying put.
tones
Tones deaf
As someone who has followed the sport since the 1960s, I agree completely with this. Every now and then along comes a driver/car combination that is simply without peer. When I started watching, Jim Clark/Lotus was such a combination - if Colin Chapman's brilliant but fragile machinery stayed together, Clark was usually the winner. Red Bull/Verstappen have taken this driver/car combination and have added almost bulletproof reliability. It's a challenge to the other teams to come up with a package that can challenge RB, and I'm sure that they're doing their best, but Newey seems to be able to outthink them every time. Given the current strictures on in-season development, I can't see anyone stopping Red Bull running off with yet another double championship, possibly winning every race. Perhaps even the ultimate nightmare - Red Bull finishing first and second in every race? Unlikely, but you never know.
A recent Financial Times article pointed out the problems of keeping the long-term enthusiasts and the newly-acquired fans happy at the same time. The former are more accepting of long-term domination by one team as part of F1's nature, but the latter are more likely to be turned off by it, finding it pointless to turn up for what may be yet another foregone conclusion. This is a direct threat to F1 as a commercial proposition, which is a problem for Liberty Media. As I've said in the past, close racing can be ensured by doing what they do in Indy-style racing - impose strict limits on the cars (in Indy, one chassis, choice of one of two engines and a limited selection of aerodynamic packages, similar kinds of limitations in NASCAR). But this is totally against the ethos of F1.
So, we are dependent on someone out-Neweying Newey. What are the chances?
Tumeni Notes
pfm Member
Fair enough, forgot him.
Tumeni Notes
pfm Member
Really good showing by Bearman. Not afraid to make some moves in the first couple of laps, ran consistently all the way through, and once everything had settled down at the end, was matching Russell's pace for a good 15 laps or so. That result places him 10th in the driver standings, and with that, he could well finish the season ahead of a bunch of other drivers....
In the Ferrari garage, Sainz's cousin/manager shook Bearman Senior's hand in congratulation, and I thought he looked seriously worried by what Bearman could do in Sainz's place.....
In the Ferrari garage, Sainz's cousin/manager shook Bearman Senior's hand in congratulation, and I thought he looked seriously worried by what Bearman could do in Sainz's place.....
Lewis was persuaded to join Merc by Ross and Niki persuading him that an under performing Merc in 2012 (a weak 5th) would improve dramatically and then dominate for the next 7 years. I was leading the development of tools and processes at that time and working with someone from another department . We did not tell the leadership what we were doing or how much of an improvement we were expecting. With the same engine in 2012 to 2013 we helped Merc become a strong 2nd and in parallel helping the power plant development with the new tools and processes, Merc then became dominant for many years.
The point I am trying to illustrate is that Ross and co are unlikely to have known what we were doing or how effective it would turn out to be (we did not know, so no one else could have!). So how did Lewis make that big call.
Certainly I see no reason as to why Ferrari should be any better than Merc. Ferrari have been weaker than Merc aerodynamically for years and years and this is the key area where Adrian has led the way.
Maybe Lewis just decided a change would be good for him as Merc were not fixing the core aero problems.
Incidentally the grid all had problems with bouncing at the Saudi track. I haven’t got a definitive reason as to why this happened and I know that some of the teams do not know either.
tuga
Legal Alien
You have one heckuva crystal ball there...
Tumeni Notes
pfm Member
Which part of "I THOUGHT he looked.... " implies this...?
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Fair enough Ian, but had Lewis seen the kind of progress that would lead him to think this car was going to be competitive - do you think he would have gone?
I saw the point made by @40imp about contacts offered, but any driver who thinks they have a car they can win in, is going to let extended contract discussions take care of themselves I would have thought.
gez
pfm Member
In all honesty BEA's performance just proves that in modern F1 (by which I mean the last 20-30 years) it's 99% the car and 1% the driver. He was in arguably the second fastest car in F1 at the moment and he ended up 7th, or more importantly just under 0.5s a lap off the pace compared to his team mate. So in all honesty I don't put much value on him having beaten half the more experienced grid. The media likes to make a big deal about how little track time he had on the circuit but truth is he's an experienced racing driver, (he's been racing for over 10 years), and learning circuits is what racing drivers do. They don't need days/weeks to learn a circuit, give them 5 laps and they're done already. The rest is just finessing. The car would have taken longer true. But he clearly was able to push it pretty close to it's limits. 0.5s a lap may be a lot in racing terms but in terms of just how hard the car is being pushed it's still over 99%, takes tiny mistakes to lose 0.1 second.
All that and he's not even a particularly special driver. He did well at the latter end of his Karting career, but since then (i.e. last 3 years) his results have been sporadic at best.
All that and he's not even a particularly special driver. He did well at the latter end of his Karting career, but since then (i.e. last 3 years) his results have been sporadic at best.
gez
pfm Member
Personally (and yes obviously it's just my opinion based on no facts at all) I think HAM has decided to go to Ferrari because he knows he's got max 1-2 years left in F1 and he just wants to be able to say he drove for the most iconic and historic team in F1. Plus I have no doubt the pay package is going to be a good one.
You do have to wonder though as to how these drivers sometimes manage to make the right call. ALO certainly got it right moving from Alpine to Aston Martin. Look where Alpine are now.
You do have to wonder though as to how these drivers sometimes manage to make the right call. ALO certainly got it right moving from Alpine to Aston Martin. Look where Alpine are now.
cutting42
Arrived at B4 Hacker Ergo
There have been many drivers who flatter to deceive coming to F1 and the reverse can be true as well. All the drivers in F1 are amazing (well possibly with the exception of MAZ) as are the drivers who win in F2 and F3. However the specific skills needed to shine in F1 are unique to F1 and we see drivers who are touted as the next Senna fading under there glare of F1 expectations - MAG snr springs to mind here.
Lauda famously did not do that well in junior formula and was a pay driver initially and did OK. Damon Hill was average at best in his early career and came to life in F1. He did have a great car but learned how to drive the cars and fight at the top level. Him nearly winning in an Arrows at the Hungaroring and his victory in a Jordan I think cement him as a proper F1 talent even more so that the WDC he won.
So I will not shout BEA from the rooftops yet nor deride him as a wannabe either. As I said he dealt with a high pressure environment really well and performed on the day. That is not to be sneezed at IMO.
Steve, no matter what progress a driver sees in the team simulator etc he has no idea how much better the competitors will be. Of course in this case he could see that Merc would still be behind RBR (2023, let alone 2024) and so the improvements that he was looking for were not happening.
But it remains a big leap to assume that Ferrari will do better in 2025 when Merc and Ferrari have been similarly off the RBR pace since the new rules were introduced.
So in the end going to a new team where he will be listened to more (being the new star) than his current team (Lewis I am sure had become part of the furniture there) would have a large attraction.
I suspect he tried Red Bull first despite what he might say, maybe he just sees Ferrari as a slightly better bet... as you say it's a big leap, but continually doing the same thing and expecting a different result is a definition of insanity so I guess he felt something had to give. Personally I think he's still haunted by Abu Dhabi 2021... I actually think he may well have retired had that gone his way or just carried on for the sheer fun of it. Sadly I don't think he'll ever get title number 8, but he's still had a heck of a career and will always be mentioned in the GOAT debates... he'll eventually find peace with it all I hope.