The Death of the Vinyl Revival

[Tony L]

All three of the last new records I've bought on Amazon have "featured" this - including, distressingly, my first Dexter Gordon LP.

What Dexter Gordon LP? My ‘EU copyright loophole pirate’ alarm is ringing very loudly.

PS You want One Flight Up and Go to start with. I know the former is dear being a Tone Poet, but some records are genuinely worth the money and more, and that is one. One of the very best Blue Notes IMHO.

 

[Tim Jones]

"Calling...." I'm just a sucker for anything with Paul Chambers on it.

Actually, the "limited edition clear vinyl" doesn't sound too bad. It's just really annoying when the Amazon vendors do this. When I was bike racing in the 2000s, we had a presumption (which stood up to evidence) that coloured tyres didn't grip as well, and my hunch about coloured vinyl is similar. Cerrtainly the "multi-coloured" vinyl of the "Safe as Milk" that arrived a few weeks sound dreadful compared to my regular, but knackered version.

I see there's a new Monk "Brilliant Corners" around btw.

 

[Woodface]

The point I’m trying to make is I’m not convinced that is the case. No one really cares if some multi-millionaire granddad or great granddad in Pink Floyd or Fleetwood Mac makes another few £million, they’ll always find another way to sell the same 50 year old thing yet again, but vinyl sales can be the difference between survival and unemployment for smaller artists who get paid the square root of jack shit from streaming and likely find it hard to get paying gigs. Shifting a few hundred records at £25 a throw from Bandcamp can really make a difference to a lot of artists, as of course can full-price downloads, CDs etc. I’ve always found the most interesting music to exist in the fringes, my collection is full of a lifetime of this sort of stuff.

My guess, judging by just how amazingly diverse and active things are at present, is this amounts to quite a lot of current sales even though they exist under the radar of mainstream chart-return stores and likely many journalists covering “the market for vinyls”.

I refer you to the best selling albums on vinyl, the ‘revival’ is measured in units sold, no other metric really.

I take your point re Bandcamp but this is basic merchandising, the vast majority of it will be coming from the more mainstream artists. I think Gen Zs like to identify with an artist but this could be just a an easily through a t-shirt or seeing them live.

May I remind you that you are very non-typical as are most on this forum. In the old days album sales were driven more by supermarkets or general stores than record stores.

I really like Bandcamp, my son has never heard of it as have most of my peers. I’d be really interested to know what their demographic base is.

 

[Tim Jones]

What Dexter Gordon LP? My ‘EU copyright loophole pirate’ alarm is ringing very loudly.

PS You want One Flight Up and Go to start with. I know the former is dear being a Tone Poet, but some records are genuinely worth the money and more, and that is one. One of the very best Blue Notes IMHO.

I see "One Flight Up" has Nils-Henning on it, so thanks for the tip, that's a must have.

 

[Woodface]

I’m currently having a trawl through Peter Gabriel’s back catalogue courtesy of Qobuz. Very much missed him first time round apart from the hits, really enjoying this experience.

It’s great to have so much choice & the means to explore, we really should cherish this.

 

[GT]

Hate to break this to you but I doubt this revival has anything to do hi-fi or esteemed experts like yourself.

I don’t think anyone saw it coming, my regular dealer didn’t, I’m not sure the kids are buying decent TTs either?

I actually don’t think vinyl will ever die, it may recede but will always hang on. Pretty sure people just like the covers.

You clearly don't know audio history. UK wise there was only a few companies that promoted vinyl replay at HiFi shows, post 1983. These were Nottingham Analogue, Michell Engineering, Simon York, Definitive Audio and G T Audio/Tron. Yes, there were companies like Linn and Pink Triangle still making turntables, but they were exploring digital and from about 1983 virtually every HiFi dealer was abandoning vinyl and going digital as they saw it as the future. Vinyl LPs could be had back then extremely cheaply, even Decca SXLs could be had for as little as £5, which says it all. Probably the biggest contributor to the resurgence of vinyl was Michael Fremer in the USA. Sure there were DJ's still using vinyl LPs but this was for transportation and mixing purposes and not for advancing the superior sound that a good turntable and vinyl records can give, that and what analogue audiophiles were pursuing at the time.

 

[Woodface]

I see "One Flight Up" has Nils-Henning on it, so thanks for the tip, that's a must have.

‘Go’ is excellent, I don’t really consider him top rank but certainly a proper artist. He’s very well served on CD also, dead easy to pick up cheaply 2nd hand. Decent vinyl pressings shouldn’t be hard to come by either.

 

[Woodface]

You clearly don't know audio history. UK wise there was only a few companies that promoted vinyl replay at HiFi shows, post 1983. These were Nottingham Analogue, Michell Engineering, Simon York, Definitive Audio and G T Audio/Tron. Yes, there were companies like Linn and Pink Triangle still making turntables, but they were exploring digital and from about 1983 virtually every HiFi dealer was abandoning vinyl and going digital as they saw it as the future. Vinyl LPs could be had back then extremely cheaply, even Decca SXLs could be had for as little as £5. Probably the biggest contributor to the resurgence of vinyl was Michael Fremer in the USA. Sure there were DJ's still using vinyl LPs but this was for transportation and mixing purposes and not for advancing the superior sound that a good turntable and vinyl records can give, that and what analogue audiophiles were pursuing at the time.

Interesting if not really the point I was making. You are taking about a tiny niche talking to a tiny niche. In the grand scheme of things vinyl did pretty much die out. May I remind you that I was still buying vinyl in the 80s, 90’s & 00’s; problem is, very few others were.

All my peers had moved to CD as had the wider market. The idea that today’s vinyl buyers will even be vaguely aware of what you are talking about is pretty fanciful.

I absolutely respect your knowledge & think you are among the most valuable contributors on here but this is a massive overreach. Of course Linn are still making TTs as are Technics, the number of the latter will massively out strip all the others you mention.

The market is driven by record companies, they will pursue profit where they can (nothing wrong with that).

I started to move more towards digital in the early millennium; I honestly don’t enjoy music any less.

 

[Tony L]

I refer you to the best selling albums on vinyl, the ‘revival’ is measured in units sold, no other metric really.

Show me how it is counted and I might take the claim seriously! As I’ve tried to point out upthread I do have knowledge of how charts were compiled and how they were in no way representative of anything other than what went over the counter specific ‘chart return’ shops. I’ve made records, I’ve sold records, I’ve worked in a record shop. I know how this market works and I’m prepared to bet an awful lot of stuff is flying under the radar as I bet a lot of indie music being sold direct isn’t in those figures. Look at all the indie shops’ annual best album lists, where are they in that list? That the list is rammed full of ancient dad-rock only reinforces this position. I very much doubt Fleetwood Mac‘s Rumours is flying out of say Bleep or Bandcamp. I’d be surprised if it represented a significant amount of sales at Rough Trade, Piccadilly, Norman, Action, Assai etc either. This leads me to suspect the figures are coming from Amazon, HMV or similar, i.e. is a fairly distorted picture that excludes much new music below the Taylor Swift level.

 

[Woodface]

Show me how it is counted and I might take the claim seriously! As I’ve tried to point out upthread I do have knowledge of how charts were compiled and how they were in no way representative of anything other than what left specific ‘chart return’ shops. I’ve made records, I’ve sold records, I’ve worked in a record shop. I know how this market works and I’m prepared to bet an awful lot of stuff is flying under the radar as I bet a lot of indie music being sold direct isn’t in those figures. That the list is rammed full of ancient dad-rock only reinforces this position. I very much doubt Fleetwood Mac‘s Rumours is flying out of say Bleep or Bandcamp. I’d be surprised if it represented a significant amount out of Rough Trade, Piccadilly, Norman, Action, Assai etc either. This leads me to suspect the figures are coming from Amazon, HMV or similar, i.e. is a fairly distorted picture that excludes much new music below the Taylor Swift level.

Ok, apologies if I came across as any way patronising, that wasn’t my intention. The best selling artist on vinyl is Taylor Swift, apparently over 600,000 units of her latest album! She is represented 3 times in the top 10!

If you choose not believe the best measures we have then I can’t really say anything. Do you think Taylor Swift doesn’t know how many units she’s selling?

If you took away the big selling artists you wouldn’t have a revival. What drove sales of CDs? Where is the potential profit today, probably vinyl & live performances. CD sales have also risen though.

How can any sort of ‘revival’ be measured other than sales? EPOS data is a lot more accurate now than it used to be.

 

[Tony L]

If you choose not believe the best measures we have then I can’t really say anything. Do you think Taylor Swift doesn’t know how many units she’s selling?

I’m sure she knows how many she’s selling. I’m just arguing an awful lot of other stuff won’t even be in the figures.

If you took away the big selling artists you wouldn’t have a revival.

Not true at all. It was the dance, electronica, indie and other minor scenes that kept the pressing plants out of landfill. Without the likes of Warp, R&S, Superstition, Plus-8, Hardhands etc etc there would be no Taylor Swift vinyl. It was an underground/independent thing, and it always has been. It still is!

EPOS data is a lot more accurate now than it used to be.

Who’s EPOS? Show me the list of retailers who’s tills are counted and I’ll take your data seriously.

 

[Woodface]

I’m sure she knows how many she’s selling. I’m just arguing an awful lot of other stuff won’t even be in the figures.



Not true at all. It was the dance, electronica, indie and other minor scenes that kept the pressing plants out of landfill. Without the likes of Warp, R&S, Superstition, Plus-8, Hardhands etc etc there would be no Taylor Swift vinyl. It was an underground/independent thing, and it always has been. It still is!



Who’s EPOS? Show me the list of retailers who’s tills are counted and I’ll take your data seriously.

But the ‘other stuff’ will be tiny in comparison. You said as much earlier when talking about limited runs of 250.

There are far fewer vinyl plants now & guess what, smaller artists get put to the back of the queue, this has been talked about at length. Of course the dance labels kept some plants going but this wasn’t a continuous thing as DJs moved more towards digital. It’s a lot easier to carry a thumb drive than a box of records.

We have an omni-channel retail world now, Amazon will know what they are selling & to who. The bigger stores will all have accurate stock control systems, I don’t think you can hype sales like you used to be able to.

Are you honestly disputing the sales figures of the bigger artists? These acts stay in the charts for years, they dominate Spotify etc. Bandcamp has been taken over, it’s changing all the time. Rough Trade are a far more sophisticated retail operation than they once were, everything is pivoting.

As much as I’d love to think this revival was being driven by hip youngsters I really don’t think it is. Where would the youth of today even keep a record collection?

 

[Mike Reed]

Vinyls is shorter than vinyl record. You are just being the worst kind of grammar snob, it just doesn’t matter. Language evolves, always has, always will. Get with the program grandad

I'm a grammar specialist, so probably a snob, but 'vinyl' and 'vinyls' are nothing to do with grammar; they're vocabulary, and it's vocabulary which evolves; rarely if ever grammar, because those are the foundations of language communication.

I put it to you that if 'vinyls' is okay as a plural, what is the singular? Vinyl. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone purchasing, owning, playing or even perusing a vinyl. Have you? Case closed in favour of pendants everywhere.

 

[Hazelberry]

I might start using the term ‘vinyls player’. Not to annoy anyone, but because I made it up & like it.

 

[Tony L]

Are you honestly disputing the sales figures of the bigger artists?

No, I’m suspicious of what I suspect is an incomplete dataset. As an example @daytona600 posted a sales list upthread compiled from BPI data, which goes some way to explain why that list is so old and white. The BPI is but a subset of the overall music marketplace. Vast numbers of labels and artists are not in that grouping.

 

[Hazelberry]

I put it to you that if 'vinyls' is okay as a plural, what is the singular? Vinyl. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone purchasing, owning, playing or even perusing a vinyl. Have you? Case closed in favour of pendants everywhere.

Here, have a medal:

 

[tiggers]

I might start using the term ‘vinyls player’. Not to annoy anyone, but because I made it up & like it.

Surely it must be a vinyl player as otherwise would a CD player not be a CDs player?

 

[NRG]

Regarding Taylor Swift album sales figures , there is a skew here as she cleverly markets and produces the same album in multiple versions…all her recent ‘Taylors’ versions have been made in at least 4 different colours and album cover styles…your local dedicated ‘Swifty’ is going to buy one album 4 times at least.

 

[Mr Pig]

Regarding Taylor Swift album sales figures , there is a skew here as she cleverly markets and produces the same album in multiple versions…

Gabriel has done the same thing with io. Two different mixes. My only question is no one thought to do it before.

 

[Alex N]

Regarding Taylor Swift album sales figures , there is a skew here as she cleverly markets and produces the same album in multiple versions…all her recent ‘Taylors’ versions have been made in at least 4 different colours and album cover styles…your local dedicated ‘Swifty’ is going to buy one album 4 times at least.

True. There was even a frame or something you could buy to display a few different copies of this year’s 1989... and previously, Folklore was released with as many as eight different designs.


Then again, I wonder how many of every new reissue of The Dark Side of the Moon are bought by people who don’t already own at least one earlier version?