Sennheiser HD600
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Bourneendboy
pfm Member
My favourite amp with the HD600s was a Graham Slee Solo SRG 11, never sounded dull to me.
Bourneendboy
pfm Member
I thought they sounded great from most amps and even straight from a phone (although volume is a bit low).
The only amp that I really disliked with them was an original Chord Mojo, that really was exceptionally dull.
The only amp that I really disliked with them was an original Chord Mojo, that really was exceptionally dull.
Hi All,
What headphone or speaker are you comparing the HD600 against when you say they are dull?
The HD600 is the most neutrally balanced of the HD6xx family and the model that measures the flattest in the HD6xx range, the HD650 & 660 have been tuned (only slightly) to give a slightly warmer presentation. Also don't get hung up on "burn-in", the HD600's work fine straight out of the box, the only "bedding in" needed on the HD600 is the tension on the headband, this may be a comfort issue for some users with large heads, it won't affect the sound.
Personally, I have found the HD600 to be pretty amplifier agnostic. I use mine with anything from the headphone socket on my Arcam A80 which is a resistor L-pad fed from the amplifier's speaker output, A DIY headphone amplifier based on a Silicon-Chip magazine Studio-series design, a Fiio K5 pro or a little Fiio E10K-TC driven from my laptop over USB when I am using them at the office. The HD600 behaves very well when driven from all these sources.
The HD600 is a high impedance design and so the HD600 will draw very little current, this makes it is a pretty easy load for any headphone amplifier, where the HD600 will come unstuck is when you cannot provide enough volts to drive the phones. Driving the phones directly from an iPhone, iPod, or a small personal media player may create an issue where the source device will be unable to deliver enough drive voltage (not power, volts and power are very different metrics), this condition will be unable to create sufficient sound pressure levels. Nearly all desktop headphone amplifiers will have more than enough voltage drive to make the HD600's work fine.
The HD600 is a fine headphone and staple of many mixing desks worldwide for a very good reason. Theye are more than capable as a domestic headphone, I like mine allot and they see regular usage in a wide range of applications.
Happy listening.
LPSPinner.
What headphone or speaker are you comparing the HD600 against when you say they are dull?
The HD600 is the most neutrally balanced of the HD6xx family and the model that measures the flattest in the HD6xx range, the HD650 & 660 have been tuned (only slightly) to give a slightly warmer presentation. Also don't get hung up on "burn-in", the HD600's work fine straight out of the box, the only "bedding in" needed on the HD600 is the tension on the headband, this may be a comfort issue for some users with large heads, it won't affect the sound.
Personally, I have found the HD600 to be pretty amplifier agnostic. I use mine with anything from the headphone socket on my Arcam A80 which is a resistor L-pad fed from the amplifier's speaker output, A DIY headphone amplifier based on a Silicon-Chip magazine Studio-series design, a Fiio K5 pro or a little Fiio E10K-TC driven from my laptop over USB when I am using them at the office. The HD600 behaves very well when driven from all these sources.
The HD600 is a high impedance design and so the HD600 will draw very little current, this makes it is a pretty easy load for any headphone amplifier, where the HD600 will come unstuck is when you cannot provide enough volts to drive the phones. Driving the phones directly from an iPhone, iPod, or a small personal media player may create an issue where the source device will be unable to deliver enough drive voltage (not power, volts and power are very different metrics), this condition will be unable to create sufficient sound pressure levels. Nearly all desktop headphone amplifiers will have more than enough voltage drive to make the HD600's work fine.
The HD600 is a fine headphone and staple of many mixing desks worldwide for a very good reason. Theye are more than capable as a domestic headphone, I like mine allot and they see regular usage in a wide range of applications.
Happy listening.
LPSPinner.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Head amps are for cartridge signal use. Think you mean can amp (or headphone amp)
You haven't mentioned the important bit; what are you plugging your 600s into at the mo'? Bit surprised at the suggestions without isolating the cause of the dullness, it seems. There nothing wrong or incompatible with 600s, so I'd immediately suspect your amplification process., assuming the cans aren't faulty (unlikely as you'd hear any major discrepancies).Just a thought, but again an unlikely cause, but your source, esp. if limited to one, may be revealing a lower s.q. which the 600s are revealing. Take your pick !
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
It would also be helpful to know which speakers or headphones the OP is using as his reference, and what is actually meant by 'dull', e.g. is there a lack of treble or lack of dynamics? Assuming the HD600 in question isn't at an extreme end of the manufacturing bell curve with regards to its tuning*, a lack of perceived treble could be explained by the OP being used to cans that have pronounced bite and sizzle up top, such as Beyerdynamlc DT880 and the like.
* My dad's HD600 have noticeably more treble than my own HD600, as confirmed by this measurement.
* My dad's HD600 have noticeably more treble than my own HD600, as confirmed by this measurement.
a.palfreyman
pfm Member
Seem to remember @martin clark saying they are designed to give correct frequency response when driven by 100R output impedance. I believe they can sound a bit rolled off if driven by a typical low output impedance headphone amp.
krenzler
pfm Member
Hence why many tend to like HD600/650 with OTL amps like Bottlehead Crack (120ohm output impedance), Woo WA2 etc.
HD600 is known for (I think) a quite forward midrange that gives the close intimacy to voices and certain instruments so I wouldn't expect it to sounds dull? Unless ones ears have been accustomed to brighter HP's like certain Beyerdynamics or Grados.
HD600 is known for (I think) a quite forward midrange that gives the close intimacy to voices and certain instruments so I wouldn't expect it to sounds dull? Unless ones ears have been accustomed to brighter HP's like certain Beyerdynamics or Grados.
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
The effect of a high output impedance on the HD600's frequency response is audible but fairly subtle IME compared to the more unquantifiable qualities that a good tube amp brings to the party with these headphones:
The skewed frequency response a high output impedance causes is much more significant on a lower impedance dynamic driver open-back headphone like the Focal Utopia:
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
I'm not sure about the Utopia but there have been many reports of clipping on the Focal Elex. I've never noticed my Utopias (or indeed any other of my dynamic headphones) hitting their end stops, then again I don't listen at extremely high volumes or go crazy with EQ. The most I counter an open-back heasdphone's bass roll-off by is usually +3dB and certainly no more than +6dB. The above measurement was indeed just an illustration of the extreme impact a high output impedance can have on a headphone that has a large differential between its nominal impedance and Fs impedance. The Utopia is way too bass-heavy with 120Ω Zout for my liking, 10Ω-30Ω is the sweet spot for this headphone IME.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
ToToMan, I've tried to get a handle on your graphs but have failed. As this impedance match at h/phone outlets is important (a learning curve for me) and you have Senn's and Focals, I'd be grateful if you could interpret any imbalance or shortcoming in my Myryad can amp match to my Utopias (or Elears (90 ohms imp. each) or 650s (300). The amp isn't powerful, having a max output of 4 Vrms at 32 ohms (0.5W) down to 8Vrms or 107 mW at 600 ohms.
it says in my booklet that output impedance is less than half an ohm (i.e. virtually none). All of my cans sound good on this little versatile amp and I'm not aware of a technical mismatch affecting s.q. Bass is, i.m.o., commensurate with the rest of the frequency range; not that bassy. The Utopias being a recent purchase, I'm knocked out with their s.q., esp. with the 1.5M top Forza cable, though in all fairness, 4 metres of stock cable is surly adding impedance; why so long, I wonder (Elears 3m).
I'd appreciate any thoughts.
it says in my booklet that output impedance is less than half an ohm (i.e. virtually none). All of my cans sound good on this little versatile amp and I'm not aware of a technical mismatch affecting s.q. Bass is, i.m.o., commensurate with the rest of the frequency range; not that bassy. The Utopias being a recent purchase, I'm knocked out with their s.q., esp. with the 1.5M top Forza cable, though in all fairness, 4 metres of stock cable is surly adding impedance; why so long, I wonder (Elears 3m).
I'd appreciate any thoughts.
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
The graphs I posted are somewhat misleading as they show SPL increasing at bass frequencies when output impedance increases. This isn't technically correct but it is easier to explain it that way.
What actually happens is a loss of power delivered into the load as output impedance increases. The lower the load impedance, the greater the loss. In most dynamic open-backs, load impedance is highest in the bass at Fs (typically between 50Hz-100Hz), so this is where the least amount is lost.
A high output impedance therefore causes more power to be delivered into the low frequencies of a dynamic open-back headphone than into the middle and high frequencies. When you turn the volume up to compensate for this loss of output at middle and high frequencies, the net result is a perceived bass boost.
If the output impedance of your Myriad is <0.5Ω then the frequency response you'll hear from your Utopia will essentially match the black line in the graph, i.e. commendably flat from 800Hz down to 90Hz and then gently rolling off below this. If you enjoy this level of bass from your Utopia then your amp is a great match. If you’d prefer elevated bass, then swapping your amp for one with a higher output impedance will give you a broad bass boost centred around 70Hz. The amount of bass boost depends on the amount of output impedance. As the graph shows, more output impedance = more bass boost.
One thing to be aware of is that as output impedance increases, the ability of the amp to deliver all of its power into the load decreases because you lose power to the output impedance. This may have consequences for headphones that need lots of power but Utopia isn’t one of these. Utopia is incredibly easy to drive and can reach a peak SPL of 104dB with just 1mW of power (that’s just 0.28V and 3.5mA).
The measurebators will work themselves into a frenzy with what I’m about to say but... my primary reason for preferring amps with high output impedance in certain situations is not because they act as an EQ on the frequency response but because they have a loosening or mellowing effect on a headphone’s transient response. IME they slow things down a little and encourage notes to hang in the air for longer.
Hope that helps.
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Mike Reed
pfm Member
Hope that helps.
Indeed it does and thanks for your useful info which even I can understand. Now having one of the top headphones and listening to TV. radio, vinyl and CD more and more now that my hearing is pretty shot, I should think of investing in a better (or different) can amp. However, there are few which have multiple inputs (mine has 3 and all used) plus output and 2 x 6.5mm jack sockets. Having all this plus an auto default standby and being dual mono class A AND sounding good is going to be difficult to improve on, i.m.o. Wife likes it too (silence is golden for her !).
Tony L
Administrator
How did you measure them? I’d not know where to start when it came to measuring a headphone as I guess one has to factor the user‘s head as part of the acoustic loading for the driver.
Are the two pairs of HD600s of different eras, or just sample variation. I know there have been several changes over the decades, different driver variants etc. I remember reading a lot about them after I bought mine, but I’ve forgotten it all now! Mine have a white accent to the drivers, which at the time made them a late pair, though no idea if they’ve changed since.
Regardless I’d certainly not say mine were dull at all, I’d actually say flat to maybe a little bright, but I just run them off my MacBook or SACD player, I’ve never had a proper headphone amp.
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
Measured using a miniDSP EARS, which is a poor man's GRAS or B&K measurement rig. It's an absolute pig to get a proper seal and thus reliable low frequency measurements with. You really need to look at the RTA while seating the earcups and tweak the position for maximum bass extension, if the seal isn't right you can easily lose -10dB or more in the bass measurements!) I'd much rather measure with a flatplate coupler lined with acoustic foam as this behaves more like an anechoic chamber for headphones and would eliminate much of the mountainous region above 2kHz but I don't have the DIY skills to construct one. Once you measure a few headphones on the EARS rig and get used to the trend lines it's quite useful for verifying / pinpointing the differences heard between different models but I wouldn't rely on it for objective analysis.
FWIW - I've always suspected my HD600 to be tuned a little warmer than the average HD600 because its treble response isn't that much different to the HD650, HD58X and HD660S I own, yet based on other measurement sources the HD600 should be noticeably brighter up top. On the plus side, however, its bass extension hold its own against all of the aforementioned models bar the HD58X, which is perhaps why I've never been anywhere near as underwhelmed by the 600's bottom end as many others appear to be!
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