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Ukraine V

That Guardian article is fun! "a woman in her 70s with bright red hair" is obviously mad. And de Gaulle's grandson descended from the hater of all things Anglo-Saxon. Love it.
 
sideshowbob said:
Really interesting piece sent to me by a Ukrainian friend explaining why she and others like her are suspicious of the main figurehead of the Russian opposition. This was something new to me:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/3/4/why-ukraine-is-wary-of-the-russian-opposition
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The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend! And in the US, foreign policy is still US centric (naturally, as in all countries) but the rhetoric around defence of freedom and democracy and the rule of law hides the facts, such as military drone use and "mission creep" increasing under Obama, and Gitmo still housing unconvicted (even by the "military tribunals" invented to suggest some form of legitimacy) renditioned prisoners. Plus the attempts to overthrow any democratically elected government that is not aligned with US interests.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend! And in the US, foreign policy is still US centric (naturally, as in all countries) but the rhetoric around defence of freedom and democracy and the rule of law hides the facts, such as military drone use and "mission creep" increasing under Obama, and Gitmo still housing unconvicted (even by the "military tribunals" invented to suggest some form of legitimacy) renditioned prisoners. Plus the attempts to overthrow any democratically elected government that is not aligned with US interests.
Click to expand...

None of that has anything to do with the case for militarily supporting Ukraine, it seems to me.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
That applies to most of this thread! But the reasons for countries' support for Ukraine are relevant, and the US support is driven by their own interests, not any moral imperative. And as such can change in instant.
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It's in everybody's interests (apart from fascists') to defeat fascism. Moral imperatives are neither here nor there as long as Putin loses. But, as it happens, to constantly bang on about the morality of the USA or NATO in the context of mass Russian war crimes in Ukraine is itself a pretty immoral position, as it does nothing but undermine the efforts to defend Ukrainians against extermination.
 
sideshowbob said:
It's in everybody's interests (apart from fascists') to defeat fascism.
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Not so. It is in the interests of many countries around the world to defeat imperialism, whether that is Russian or American. And the the US has a longer and more pervasive reach than Russia. And their propaganda machine (yes Hollywood, I am looking at you).
BTW, I fully support supplying Ukraine with all the help we can give them, I just object to the US good, Russia bad rhetoric.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend! And in the US, foreign policy is still US centric (naturally, as in all countries) but the rhetoric around defence of freedom and democracy and the rule of law hides the facts, such as military drone use and "mission creep" increasing under Obama, and Gitmo still housing unconvicted (even by the "military tribunals" invented to suggest some form of legitimacy) renditioned prisoners. Plus the attempts to overthrow any democratically elected government that is not aligned with US interests.
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So the takeaway here is "but US."

Next time just use that - it's more efficient.
 
I was speaking to colleagues from Russia in meetings in Amsterdam yesterday. They made the point that the Russia state-controlled propaganda is absolutely overwhelming at the moment. There are no alternative voices anywhere and if you can't access the internet or Youtube, which is a substantial part of the population and all of the older generation, then you follow the Kremlin's line.

They noted that watching the same film footage, with Russia commentary and non-Russian commentary, diametrically opposite descriptions and interpretations were being applied. Little wonder that information you can trust is in short supply (perhaps on both sides).
 
awkwardbydesign said:
BTW, I fully support supplying Ukraine with all the help we can give them, I just object to the US good, Russia bad rhetoric.
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Why?

Once in a while, there is a clear moral division in world history and one camp is indeed on the bad side and another is on the good.

You could absolutely brutally criticize the US during WW2 - heck Americans just added Hawaii as a state - a clear indication of dastardly American "imperialism." But doing it at the same time the Nazis were conducting the Haloucaust would be considered... insensitive.
 
DimitryZ said:
Why?

Once in a while, there is a clear moral division in world history and one camp is indeed on the bad side and another is on the good.
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Again, US good, Russia bad. The US is NOT on the good side, they are on their own side. For the moment they support Ukraine, but a change of president and they probably won't. Touting US moral superiority deserves no more than a hollow laugh.
But why do I bother, blinkers are blinkers.
 
Colin L said:
I was speaking to colleagues from Russia in meetings in Amsterdam yesterday. They made the point that the Russia state-controlled propaganda is absolutely overwhelming at the moment. There are no alternative voices anywhere and if you can't access the internet or Youtube, which is a substantial part of the population and all of the older generation, then you follow the Kremlin's line.

They noted that watching the same film footage, with Russia commentary and non-Russian commentary, diametrically opposite descriptions and interpretations were being applied. Little wonder that information you can trust is in short supply (perhaps on both sides).
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Don't "both side" this please.

Generally, there is a strong tendency on the western left to equate questionable leadership we certainly have in the West to the worst excesses of world's worst dictatorships. Hence we constantly hear that Nixon=Hitler and Thatcher=Mussolini or whomever. And that we are surrounded by "Western Propaganda" which makes us as blind as the Russians.

This is wrong on multiple levels. Great majority of you born in the West don't and will never have an understanding of what it's like to live in a true dictatorship - and frankly your attempts to equate your first world political gripes with historical calamities the rest of the world experienced on a regular basis is REALLY GRATING.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
Again, US good, Russia bad. The US is NOT on the good side, they are on their own side. For the moment they support Ukraine, but a change of president and they probably won't. Touting US moral superiority deserves no more than a hollow laugh.
But why do I bother, blinkers are blinkers.
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Maybe you don't believe in good an evil. Or perhaps you believe in God, so intent is all that matters. Or you treat countries as individuals, also wrong.

At any rate, the thing that upsets you the most in this horrendous war is... the unfairness of US being on the right side this time. This is why you are in this thread and that's what you want to discuss - how to knock out the West from this unfair position.

I would recommend you reconsider your mioptic world view, but that's highly unlikely.
 
sideshowbob said:
Really interesting piece sent to me by a Ukrainian friend explaining why she and others like her are suspicious of the main figurehead of the Russian opposition. This was something new to me:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/3/4/why-ukraine-is-wary-of-the-russian-opposition
Click to expand...
I would hope that Navalny's positions are evolving as a result of the "special operation", but he started from fairly nationalistic positions, including some that come across as quite right wing. The fact he might have been a credible opponent to Putin does not change that.
 
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