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Ukraine V

Kirk said:
One of the Republican candidates for the US presidency, Ron DeSantis, said that supporting Ukraine is not in America's interests, and the war itself is a territorial dispute. On Fox News.
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Kirk said:
One of the Republican candidates for the US presidency, Ron DeSantis, said that supporting Ukraine is not in America's interests, and the war itself is a territorial dispute. On Fox News.
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It's terrifying. If the Republicans win in 2024 we're in serious shit. Yet another reason to send as many arms as possible to Ukraine as soon as possible, to get the war won before the Republicans have a chance to gift large parts of Europe to fascism.

Meanwhile, Timothy Snyder brilliantly eviscerates the half-wits and bad faith actors who blither on about "Russophobia":

https://snyder.substack.com/p/playing-the-victim
 
sideshowbob said:
It's terrifying. If the Republicans win in 2024 we're in serious shit. Yet another reason to send as many arms as possible to Ukraine as soon as possible, to get the war won before the Republicans have a chance to gift large parts of Europe to fascism.

Meanwhile, Timothy Snyder brilliantly eviscerates the half-wits and bad faith actors who blither on about "Russophobia":
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Excellent link. Snyder points to something important, we must avoid seeing Russia or Russians as an homogeneous block. Russian people and Russian culture are also threatened by this dreadful war and by the ideology at the top that leads it.

“harm to Russians, and harm to Russian culture, is primarily a result of the policies of the Russian Federation. If we are concerned about harm to Russians and Russian culture, then we should be concerned with the policies of the Russian state.”
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Snyder also makes the wider historical point very well;

“This claim that the victims are irrational, that they are "phobic," that they have a "phobia," is meant to distract from the actual experience of the victims in the real world, which is an experience, of course, of aggression and war and atrocity. The term "russophobia" is imperial strategy designed to change the subject from an actual war of aggression to the feelings of the aggressors, thereby suppressing the existence and the experience of the people who are most harmed. The imperialist says: "We are the only people here. We are the real victims. And our hurt feelings count more than other people's lives."

Now, Russia's war crimes in Ukraine can be and will be evaluated by Ukrainian law, because they take place on Ukrainian territory, and by international law. To the naked eye, we can see that there is a war of aggression, crimes against humanity, and genocide.”
​
While Ukraine is quite properly primary, there will be other imperial wars in which the aggressors portray themselves as victims (or more likely, this thinking will evolve into aggressors portraying themselves as saviours)

The book by Nikolai Koposov recommended by Snyder is well worth a read https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1108410162/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

​
 
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ks.234 said:
“harm to Russians, and harm to Russian culture, is primarily a result of the policies of the Russian Federation. If we are concerned about harm to Russians and Russian culture, then we should be concerned with the policies of the Russian state.”​
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What if you changed that from Russians to Americans and Russian state to Republicans? Would that fly?
 
awkwardbydesign said:
What if you changed that from Russians to Americans and Russian state to Republicans? Would that fly?
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Yes, I believe so. Snyder was talking about Ukraine specifically, but you can see in his analysis a broader criticism the same US/UK imperial aggression sold as ‘we are the victims’ in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“This is historically typical behavior. The imperial power dehumanizes the actual victim, and claims to be the victim.”​

(On this note, the R4 series Shock and War make it clear that the US was planning a second Gulf war well before 9/11
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001k0cg?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile’
 
ks.234 said:
Excellent link. Snyder points to something important, we must avoid seeing Russia or Russians as an homogeneous block. Russian people and Russian culture are also threatened by this dreadful war and by the ideology at the top that leads it.

“harm to Russians, and harm to Russian culture, is primarily a result of the policies of the Russian Federation. If we are concerned about harm to Russians and Russian culture, then we should be concerned with the policies of the Russian state.”
​
Snyder also makes the wider historical point very well;

“This claim that the victims are irrational, that they are "phobic," that they have a "phobia," is meant to distract from the actual experience of the victims in the real world, which is an experience, of course, of aggression and war and atrocity. The term "russophobia" is imperial strategy designed to change the subject from an actual war of aggression to the feelings of the aggressors, thereby suppressing the existence and the experience of the people who are most harmed. The imperialist says: "We are the only people here. We are the real victims. And our hurt feelings count more than other people's lives."

Now, Russia's war crimes in Ukraine can be and will be evaluated by Ukrainian law, because they take place on Ukrainian territory, and by international law. To the naked eye, we can see that there is a war of aggression, crimes against humanity, and genocide.”
​
While Ukraine is quite properly primary, there will be other imperial wars in which the aggressors portray themselves as victims (or more likely, this thinking will evolve into aggressors portraying themselves as saviours)

The book by Nikolai Koposov recommended by Snyder is well worth a read https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1108410162/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

​
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Interesting.

You accused me of Russophobia and racism not too long ago...

And Snyder would cringe at your attempts to reshape his direct criticism of Russian war of conquest and territorial gain into generic anti-american cliches.
 
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I note that Snyder is American, and writes from that perspective. As does Dimitry, who has provided much useful insight into the invasion, although the general tone of the wonderfullness of the US is somewhat wearing, as are his attacks on any dissenting views.
 
DimitryZ said:
Interesting.

You accused me of Russophobia and racism not too long ago...

And Snyder would cringe at your attempts to reshape his direct criticism of Russian war of conquest and territorial gain into generic anti-american cliches.
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No. I accused you of lumping ‘the Russian People’ together and the describing the psychology of that entire people as racist because you did. You have made much the same generalisation with other ‘peoples’. Snyder ISTM is very much saying that it is not appropriate to characterise the Russian People as representing the imperial racism of Putin, he is saying that the Russian people are not all racist, that there is complexity, nuance and even culture in the Russian psyche
 
ks.234 said:
No. I accused you of lumping ‘the Russian People’ together and the describing the psychology of that entire people as racist because you did. You have made much the same generalisation with other ‘peoples’. Snyder ISTM is very much saying that it is not appropriate to characterise the Russian People as representing the imperial racism of Putin, he is saying that the Russian people are not all racist, that there is complexity, nuance and even culture in the Russian psyche
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So the process of "lumping people together" is now a racist act.

The fields of numerical sociology, public opinion measurements and propaganda assessments are now "racist?"

They assign numbers to populations, apparently a sin...

Here is a curious fact from the past: After the end of WW2, Nazi party continued to poll positively among majority of Germans, and that trend continued until most of the wartime generation of Germans died. If not for the fact that Germany was under allied occupation and the Nazi party was made illegal, the good German people would have happily voted the Nazis back into power.

Are there any lessons for humanity here, or do we just pretend that everyone is good and "it's the leader's fault?"
 
DimitryZ said:
So the process of "lumping people together" is now a racist act.

The fields of numerical sociology, public opinion measurements and propaganda assessments are now "racist?"

They assign numbers to populations, apparently a sin...

Here is a curious fact from the past: After the end of WW2, Nazi party continued to poll positively among majority of Germans, and that trend continued until most of the wartime generation of Germans died. If not for the fact that Germany was under allied occupation and the Nazi party was made illegal, the good German people would have happily voted the Nazis back into power.

Are there any lessons for humanity here, or do we just pretend that everyone is good and "it's the leader's fault?"
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We have been here before with your assertions about the meaning of Critical Race Theory and Moral Relativism, both of which you interpreted, I would argue, wrongly.

And so we are again with numerical sociology, public opinion measurements and propaganda assessments. I would be interested to see the numerical sociology, public opinion measurements and propaganda assessments that demonstrate your opinion that the Russian People are psychologically racist.

I suppose you could look at certain statistics to show that a country such as the UK, and the English in particular, have a massive problem with racist attitudes, after all, you could if you chose, use polling evidence to suggest that our Tory Party Nazi language on immigration is popular. But you could not use that evidence to say that the English people, as a whole ‘lump’, are psychologically racist.

I agree with you that it is not the leader’s fault. Especially in the UK and the US where we actually elect leaders like Trump and Thatcher and Johnson into power, but just because the US elects a cruel populist like Trump, or the UK elects a government based on it’s 1930’s rhetoric, that does not make an individual citizen a racist. You still have an individual choice to be a racist, or not.

Some people, do not define a people.

And this ISTM, is what Snyder was saying in the article we are discussing
 
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ks.234 said:
We have been here before with your interpretations of Critical Race Theory and Moral Relativism, both of which you interpreted, I would argue, wrongly.

And so we are again with numerical sociology, public opinion measurements and propaganda assessments. I would be interested to see the numerical sociology, public opinion measurements and propaganda assessments that demonstrate your opinion that the Russian People are psychologically racist.

I suppose you could look at certain statistics to show that a country such as the UK, and the English in particular, have a massive problem with racist attitudes, after all, you could if you chose, use polling evidence to suggest that our Tory Party Nazi language on immigration is popular. But you could not use that evidence to say that the English people, as a whole ‘lump’, are psychologically racist.

I agree with you that it is not the leader’s fault. Especially in the UK and the US where we actually elect leaders like Trump and Thatcher and Johnson into power, but just because the US elects a cruel populist like Trump, or the UK elects a government based on it’s 1930’s rhetoric, that does not make an individual citizen a racist. You still have an individual choice to be a racist, or not.

Some people, do not define a people.

And this ISTM, is what Snyder was saying in the article we are discussing
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The bottom line is nobody is guilty of anything, it seems.

And how can one bring up legitimate findings of widespread support for Hitler long after the disastrous end to WW2 for Germany and widespread support for Putin long after the crushing defeat of his Ukrainian blitzkrieg?

You choose to ignore it entirely at your own peril. It's clearly a very uncomfortable topic for the left wing - how can it not be "society's fault?" - everything else is.
 
DimitryZ said:
The bottom line is nobody is guilty of anything, it seems.

And how can one bring up legitimate findings of widespread support for Hitler long after the disastrous end to WW2 for Germany and widespread support for Putin long after the crushing defeat of his Ukrainian blitzkrieg?

You choose to ignore it entirely at your own peril. It's clearly a very uncomfortable topic for the left wing - how can it not be "society's fault?" - everything else is.
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Not sure what your point is anymore, you seem to be making an argument for collective guilt based on your assertion that an entire people are responsible for the actions of their leaders, which doesn’t square within your past assertions that to criticise US foreign policy is “anti American”. On the one hand you seem to support the idea of collective guilt when discussing ‘the Russian People’ (or Europeans, or Serbs), but when there is a criticism of US leadership, you reject that collective guilt as ‘anti American’.

Racism is not ‘society’s fault’, it is the fault of individual racist attitudes. Living in a Trumpist USA or a Tory UK, is not an excuse for individual racism. If you are a racist, that is still an individual choice, it is not determined by ‘society’.
 
ks.234 said:
Not sure what your point is anymore, you seem to be making an argument for collective guilt based on your assertion that an entire people are responsible for the actions of their leaders, which doesn’t square within your past assertions that to criticise US foreign policy is “anti American”. On the one hand you seem to support the idea of collective guilt when discussing ‘the Russian People’ (or Europeans, or Serbs), but when there is a criticism of US leadership, you reject that collective guilt as ‘anti American’.

Racism is not ‘society’s fault’, it is the fault of individual racist attitudes. Living in a Trumpist USA or a Tory UK, is not an excuse for individual racism. If you are a racist, that is still an individual choice, it is not determined by ‘society’.
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That sounds like you're denying institutional racism.
 
ks.234 said:
Not sure what your point is anymore, you seem to be making an argument for collective guilt based on your assertion that an entire people are responsible for the actions of their leaders, which doesn’t square within your past assertions that to criticise US foreign policy is “anti American”. On the one hand you seem to support the idea of collective guilt when discussing ‘the Russian People’ (or Europeans, or Serbs), but when there is a criticism of US leadership, you reject that collective guilt as ‘anti American’.

Racism is not ‘society’s fault’, it is the fault of individual racist attitudes. Living in a Trumpist USA or a Tory UK, is not an excuse for individual racism. If you are a racist, that is still an individual choice, it is not determined by ‘society’.
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So what is your prescription for a society, where a majority of people, seemingly excercising their free will, decide to support a murderous dictator, who uses said society to wage a massive war of genocide against a neighboring country?

You can deflect and PC this situation to death, but at the end of the day you still have 100 million Russians who want to erase Ukraine from the map - together with any Ukranians who disagree. Great majority of Germans were just fine with mass murder of millions of Jews - and continued to feel that way until they died - long after they knew of all the atrocities.

Perhaps you can offer each one a train ride on the new peace train you proposed before? Maybe a stern talking to?
 
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