Jerry Sadowitz cancelled

[Tony L]

It also seems like an assertion of power on the part of venue owners - relative to that of artists and audiences - and it’s jarring to see such strong support for that on this thread.

Until you are platforming the next Tory leadership hustings or EDL rally in your back garden to prove you believe venue owners have no rights I’ll not be giving that one much credibility. A venue owner clearly has the right to define what they are prepared to platform or not. Don’t like it? Buy or create a venue and apply your own ‘no censorship’ perspective and see exactly what crap you get to deal with.

PS I do find this one puzzling as JS is clearly what he is and the venue owner should have been aware of what sort of content to expect prior to signing a contract for the show. I’d be interested to know what was the deal-breaker here and exactly what the contract stated. The Edinburgh Fringe is clearly a high-profile big ticket event for any act with a name, I assume the venue will have lost many £thousands in pulling the plug here and may even be in breach of contract depending upon the precise wording of whatever was agreed. The way people are digging in here knowing nothing about the detail is amusing in the extreme. I’ve deliberately stayed clear of everything bar generally attacking the far-right trope of “cancel culture” and explaining the basic concept of freedom of choice applies in what a venue platforms. Both very non-controversial points IMHO. I’ve said nothing about this incident as, like everyone else, I know no detail. There seems to be a lot of Jordan Peterson cry-whining around, but that is always the case with these things these days.

 

[foxwelljsly]

Did anyone else here go to Malcolm Hardee’s Tunnel Club? Good times.

https://londonist.com/2014/09/tunnel-vision-the-80s-comedy-club-where-heckling-became-an-art-form

Nope, bit too young for that. Knew a chap called Alan King a few years ago who was involved with Vic Reeves early on. He made that scene sound a riot.

 

[foxwelljsly]

Until you are platforming the next Tory leadership hustings or EDL rally in your back garden to prove you believe venue owners have no rights I’ll not be giving that one much credibility. A venue owner clearly has the right to define what they are prepared to platform or not. Don’t like it? Buy or create a venue and apply your own ‘no censorship’ perspective and see exactly what crap you get to deal with.

PS I do find this one puzzling as JS is clearly what he is and the venue owner should have been aware of what sort of content to expect prior to signing a contract for the show. I’d be interested to know what was the deal-breaker here and exactly what the contract stated. The Edinburgh Fringe is clearly a high-profile big ticket event for any act with a name, I assume the venue will have lost many £thousands in pulling the plug here and may even be in breach of contract depending upon the precise wording of whatever was agreed. The way people are digging in here knowing nothing about the detail is amusing in the extreme. I’ve deliberately stayed clear of everything bar generally attacking the far-right trope of “cancel culture” and explaining the basic concept of freedom of choice applies in what a venue platforms. Both very non-controversial points IMHO. I’ve said nothing about this incident as, like everyone else, I know no detail. There seems to be a lot of Jordan Peterson cry-whining around, but that is always the case with these things these days.

I’d suggest this venue has been irresponsible in fuelling the fire for the whole cancel culture trope. Who the hell books Jerry Sadowitz, or allows him to use their venue, when they’ve had him before and know what he’s about and then cancels his second night because of complaints? The twitterverse is now alight with the sort of gammony reactionaries that would be incandescent with rage at some of his material banging on about woke snowflakes. As if they needed any more encouragement.

 

[Alex S]

It was the second of 2 Sadowitz shows that was pulled. "The Pleasance said racism, homophobia, sexism and misogynistic language had no place in its venues.' So, any Sadowitz show ever!

The Tunnel Club audience was a bizarre mix of SE London locals, thuggish Millwall supporters and student types. It worked. Vic Reeves stood on stage with a crab and got bottled before he could say anything. There were always favourites - some old RAF geezer who did aircraft noises was a highlight. Jo Brand held her own far better than most. Jim Tavaré always went down well.

 

[Tony L]

I’d suggest this venue has been irresponsible in fuelling the fire for the whole cancel culture trope. Who the hell books Jerry Sadowitz, or allows him to use their venue, when they’ve had him before and know what he’s about and then cancels his second night because of complaints?

Again we don’t know the detail. We don’t know what the contract was. It is all speculation at this point. If the venue didn’t do their research then that is on them and they are likely in breach of contract and may have to pay Sadowitz for the second day. If however there were ‘red lines’ in the contract and he wilfully broke them then that is on him. As a thought experiment consider that the venue has a regular night for a local minority group and has considered itself a safe-space for this group for many years. As such they put a clause in the contract explaining this and that no attacks on this group would be viewed as acceptable. It would be a fair contract and had it been breached pulling the next night would be within the scope of the contract.

I’d be very surprised if the venue simply pulled day two without any dialogue or negotiation. I’d be even more surprised if they booked a controversial confrontational ‘shock’ act without understanding who he was and what he did. That would be truly incompetent and they’d deserve to be sued. There will be a lot of money at stake here, even breach of contract and legal action. My suspicion is we don’t know the whole story here. If Sadowitz is banking it on Twitter that’s his choice, it doesn’t necessarily get us any closer to the story here.

PS Anyone know what the ticket price was and the venue capacity? What figures are we talking here?

 

[Bob McC]

Again we don’t know the detail. We don’t know what the contract was. It is all speculation at this point. If the venue didn’t do their research then that is on them and they are likely in breach of contract and may have to pay Sadowitz for the second day. If however there were ‘red lines’ in the contract and he wilfully broke them then that is on him. As a thought experiment consider that the venue has a regular night for a local minority group and has considered itself a safe-space for this group for many years. As such they put a clause in the contract explaining this and that no attacks on this group would be viewed as acceptable. It would be a fair contract and had it been breached pulling the next night would be within the scope of the contract.

I’d be very surprised if the venue simply pulled day two without any dialogue or negotiation. I’d be even more surprised if they booked a controversial confrontational ‘shock’ act without understanding who he was and what he did. That would be truly incompetent and they’d deserve to be sued. There will be a lot of money at stake here, even breach of contract and legal action. My suspicion is we don’t know the whole story here. If Sadowitz is banking it on Twitter that’s his choice, it doesn’t necessarily get us any closer to the story here.

PS Anyone know what the ticket price was and the venue capacity? What figures are we talking here?

I have the Fringe programme from my visit last week.
The show was at the Lennox theatre, capacity 1300, ticket price £22.50

 

[paulfromcamden]

I’d suggest this venue has been irresponsible in fuelling the fire for the whole cancel culture trope. Who the hell books Jerry Sadowitz, or allows him to use their venue, when they’ve had him before and know what he’s about and then cancels his second night because of complaints? The twitterverse is now alight with the sort of gammony reactionaries that would be incandescent with rage at some of his material banging on about woke snowflakes. As if they needed any more encouragement.

It sounds like the venue really messed up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was venue staff complaining that caused the second night to be pulled. You can kind of see how the Programming Director might book him as a bit of edgy programming but it all comes as a bit of a shock to the FOH staff more used to Rory Bremner or whatever.

Still, the notoriety won't do Mr Sadowitz any harm. Best publicity he's had in a decade.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I have the Fringe programme.
The show was at the Lennox theatre, capacity 1300, ticket price £22.50

1300 cap, 600 punters for the first show.

 

[Seanm]

Whether you think the venue is right, or wrong on this one, venue owners do have the power to decide what they host and what they don't, unless you are arguing that an artist's right of free speech overrides that. So while the situation has its bizarre aspects (surely the venue knew what it was letting itself in for, ditto the audience) the right of free expression has limits, and also a commercial entity is not bound by it in the way that government is.

Until you are platforming the next Tory leadership hustings or EDL rally in your back garden to prove you believe venue owners have no rights I’ll not be giving that one much credibility. A venue owner clearly has the right to define what they are prepared to platform or not. Don’t like it? Buy or create a venue and apply your own ‘no censorship’ perspective and see exactly what crap you get to deal with.

PS I do find this one puzzling as JS is clearly what he is and the venue owner should have been aware of what sort of content to expect prior to signing a contract for the show. I’d be interested to know what was the deal-breaker here and exactly what the contract stated. The Edinburgh Fringe is clearly a high-profile big ticket event for any act with a name, I assume the venue will have lost many £thousands in pulling the plug here and may even be in breach of contract depending upon the precise wording of whatever was agreed. The way people are digging in here knowing nothing about the detail is amusing in the extreme. I’ve deliberately stayed clear of everything bar generally attacking the far-right trope of “cancel culture” and explaining the basic concept of freedom of choice applies in what a venue platforms. Both very non-controversial points IMHO. I’ve said nothing about this incident as, like everyone else, I know no detail. There seems to be a lot of Jordan Peterson cry-whining around, but that is always the case with these things these days.

I’m not suggesting venue owners don’t have a right to stage what they want. What I’m remarking on is the suggestion that asserting this abstract right settles anything, legally, artistically, politically, and that anyone pointing out the absurdity of the venue’s statement, and the seeming absurdity of the cancellation itself, is a Nazi. As I’ve said, the debate around censorship is complicated and changing fast, and any kind of absolutist position is out of place IMO.

 

[Caledon1297]

Statement from Jerry Sadowitz:

https://twitter.com/RealJSadowitz/status/1558938534819635201

 

[Tony L]

I’m not suggesting venue owners don’t have a right to stage what they want. What I’m remarking on is the suggestion that asserting this abstract right settles anything, legally, artistically, politically, and that anyone pointing out the absurdity of the venue’s statement, and the seeming absurdity of the cancellation itself, is a Nazi.

Has anyone actually said that? I notice GB News are circling though, as to them Jerry Sadowitz is obviously just the same as Nigel Farage or Jordan Peterson! I’m in no doubt both sides will politicise this.

Reading Sadowitz’s statement his show sold 600 seats in a 1300 seat venue on day one, just 300 on day two. Are we sure the content is the sole factor here?

PS FWIW this stuff does worry me, but from the opposite perspective to yours. My concern is the increasing authoritarianism of the Tory Party forcing student unions etc to platform ‘anti-woke’ right-wing shitheads and other undesirables. This was pushed to the Civil Service too (wonderful response from Brian Cox here on Twitter).

 

[Bob McC]

With sales like that he would have had no chance of covering his costs to put on his show at the Fringe.
But then that’s true for most of the acts there.

 

[paulfromcamden]

It sounds like the venue really messed up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was venue staff complaining that caused the second night to be pulled. You can kind of see how the Programming Director might book him as a bit of edgy programming but it all comes as a bit of a shock to the FOH staff more used to Rory Bremner or whatever.

Well, according to Twitter (I know..) the complaints were from teenage casual staff working as ushers etc. Seems obvious the venue should have warned them about the contents of the act so people could decline to work that shift if they wished.

 

[Bob McC]

Not according to the venue.
But then no doubt all their staff are venal, lying snowflakes eh?

 

[klfrs]

Did you enjoy your flounce?

Whether you think the venue is right, or wrong on this one, venue owners do have the power to decide what they host and what they don't, unless you are arguing that an artist's right of free speech overrides that. So while the situation has its bizarre aspects (surely the venue knew what it was letting itself in for, ditto the audience) the right of free expression has limits, and also a commercial entity is not bound by it in the way that government is.

Until you are platforming the next Tory leadership hustings or EDL rally in your back garden to prove you believe venue owners have no rights I’ll not be giving that one much credibility.

It's not the same at all. They're just saying "not on my premises" and that's totally reasonable.

The venue is in public ownership. It's not a business run by venture capitalists, so not a case of the beardy bros of twitter banning people who refuse to follow their script.

HPS FWIW this stuff does worry me, but from the opposite perspective to yours. My concern is the increasing authoritarianism of the Tory Party forcing student unions etc to platform ‘anti-woke’ right-wing shitheads and other undesirables. This was pushed to the Civil Service too (wonderful response from Brian Cox here on Twitter).

The provisional wing of progressivism, and the right wing Mary Whitehouse tribute acts, are two cheeks of the same authoritarian arse.
Those who claim to support the arts while ignorantly arguing for cancellation, and blithely nodding on this BS, should have the cahones to own what that makes them.

Well, according to Twitter (I know..) the complaints were from teenage casual staff working as ushers etc. Seems obvious the venue should have warned them about the contents of the act so people could decline to work that shift if they wished.

That explains the venues claim that people "felt unsafe". The fascists will arrive in helicopters and not tanks. There are clues as to who will be welcoming them.

 

[bor]

WHAT THE F*** did he say FFS ? It's some big secret apparently.

I don't care about him getting his cock out in a theatre, I've done that myself(although I was frogmarched out and banned from watching films there).

If it's as reported, then **** him. Context? We are a going to need a shit load of context for this.

Why should comedians get a free pass for bigotry?

 

[Kirk]

This thread would be heading in an entirely different direction if he was a Tory MP.

 

[Seanm]

Has anyone actually said that? I notice GB News are circling though, as to them Jerry Sadowitz is obviously just the same as Nigel Farage or Jordan Peterson! I’m in no doubt both sides will politicise this.

Reading Sadowitz’s statement his show sold 600 seats in a 1300 seat venue on day one, just 300 on day two. Are we sure the content is the sole factor here?

PS FWIW this stuff does worry me, but from the opposite perspective to yours. My concern is the increasing authoritarianism of the Tory Party forcing student unions etc to platform ‘anti-woke’ right-wing shitheads and other undesirables. This was pushed to the Civil Service too (wonderful response from Brian Cox here on Twitter).

Well yeah, you, pretty much: straight in there with “So you’re saying venue owners have no rights are you!?” and “So you support EDL do you?!”

That the right have weaponised and amplified anxieties around changing concepts of censorship and free speech is part of the broader situation but not the whole of it, and doesn’t settle anything. Piers Morgan having editorial guidelines imposed on him on broadcast TV isn’t the same as as a theatre cancelling a show because it’s decided suddenly that it won’t host the expression of illiberal speech, whether in or out of character.

 

[Seanm]

Well, according to Twitter (I know..) the complaints were from teenage casual staff working as ushers etc. Seems obvious the venue should have warned them about the contents of the act so people could decline to work that shift if they wished.

Looks like poor management and exploitation may be part of the mix.

 

[paulfromcamden]

The venue is in public ownership.

So that means they're obliged to book offensive comedians? Dunno.

There were complaints. The venue''s management decided to cancel the second show. I don't think that was very clever of them - and Mr Sadowitz appears to have been shabbily treated by them - but that's all that happened.

He's not been sent to the Gulag for saying naughty things. He's not been 'cancelled'. He has another 27 shows lined up - and I imagine some promotors will be eagerly adding extra nights!

I mostly just feel for the poor guy - imagine having JK Rowling and Toby Young rushing to your defence....