advertisement


Ukraine IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not familiar with the 'shock therapy' line..
USSR was state organized economy, everything was according to some plan. Who and what produces and who will be buyer. There was already trouble with economy, in last Soviet years at some point we had vouchers so we can by limited things in shop. Actually, people had some money, just not what to buy. I do not know if it is what he ment by 'schock terapy', but economy collapse like overnight. There was no anymore market in Soviet side and in West side nobody needed what we produced. So, yes, it was quite schock as everything needed to be started practically from zero.
 
I That said, I'm perfectly willing to believe that western neoliberal factions, and global business interests, exploited Russia shamelessly and ruthlessly. It's what they do, why would anybody expect them not to, if given half a chance? That I believe it doesn't mean, of course, that I excuse it or condone it.
.

And has already been said a number of times:

1)The way neo-liberalism was applied in Russia by those who benefit from it does NOT excuse or justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Nor does the rise of the Russian kleptocracy.

2) Many of us in 'the west' have for a long time opposed and criticised the neo-liberals and their methods. It damages us, too, but we haven't tried to invade a neighbouring country using that as an excuse.

3) Ditto (2) for our also suffering from that kleptocracy feeding much of our political system, etc, and bending things here to suit them at our expense.
 
USSR was state organized economy, everything was according to some plan. Who and what produces and who will be buyer. There was already trouble with economy, in last Soviet years at some point we had vouchers so we can by limited things in shop. Actually, people had some money, just not what to buy. I do not know if it is what he ment by 'schock terapy', but economy collapse like overnight. There was no anymore market in Soviet side and in West side nobody needed what we produced. So, yes, it was quite schock as everything needed to be started practically from zero.
This is hard for westerners to appreciate I think. I remember two shocking observations of a journalist there at the time. Every litter bin seems to be spilling over with discarded party member cards; often burnt to emphasise the point and middle class Moscovites trying to sell possessions at the side of the road.
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
I can imagine, that big city so much relied on imports and that all is collapsed. Smaler places went through all that more easy, I think.
 

FWIW I can't recall if I've already recomended it, but if interested I'd also recommend this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0017t8k/episodes/guide
which is based on
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/178816587X/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Illustrates some of the impact the Russian kleptocracy has had on the UK for many years now. Uncomfortable reading for many of our politicians, lawyers, bankers, and press barons. Lifts the corner of the rug.
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
I can imagine, that big city so much relied on imports and that all is collapsed. Smaler places went through all that more easy, I think.

Not at all - many state jobs in the regions simply disappeared - health service workers found themselves without jobs and moved to Moscow for employment prospects.
 
FWIW I can't recall if I've already recomended it, but if interested I'd also recommend this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0017t8k/episodes/guide
which is based on
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/178816587X/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Illustrates some of the impact the Russian kleptocracy has had on the UK for many years now. Uncomfortable reading for many of our politicians, lawyers, bankers, and press barons. Lifts the corner of the rug.
Yes, How to Steal A Trillion is well worth listening to twice.

While we’re recommending books for those interested in reading around this topic, Kleptocracy, by Tom Burgis is also excellent. Tom Burgis is currently fighting off legal attempts to silence him and his book, which should be recommendation enough.
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
Not at all - many state jobs in the regions simply disappeared - health service workers found themselves without jobs and moved to Moscow for employment prospects.
That is about early 90? Probably you are right, actually I have no idea about Moscow. At our home I remember small cities, villages, who was more into local market, went through it a bit more easy than big cities with their big, specialized factories, who lost their market. At least at beginning.
 
Providing a plenty of sophisticated intelligence data (to eliminate enemy's head staff, ships and other), military trainings, weaponry and last but not least personnel through specialized agencies is certainly not a belligerent but neither is not being a participant.

Actually, Ukraine as a sovereign state has a right to invite any foreign military to help them defending. Why UK or US army wouldn't do this I dunno but it smells like a massive hypocrisy to me. The war could have been over long time ago. There won't be a Ukraine victory without your ground and other troops.
Ahh, finally the central point, but purposefully inverted to hide your actual desire.

"The war would have been over a long time ago" meme - Putin, Lavrov and Zaharova says this every day - if the dastardly West only stopped giving weapons to the victim, we would have won already.

And this brings us to the final point explaining your and Dmitre's tearful concerns about the death and destruction. The main motivation in your position isn't humanitarian at all - it's entirely based on your infinite hatred of the West. Any and all world calamity that humiliates the West and elevates Russia is basically OK. Since in your view the West represents a far larger danger to the future of the world than Russia (who is just fighting for justice and respect, after all), Russian subjugation and genocide in Ukraine is lamentable but entirely necessary.

And that's you in a nutshell - fighting a never ending continuation of the Kosovo war.
 
True, but according to documents declassified in 2017, there was a deal made in 1990 which essentially was that the Soviets would allow German unification with the written “ironclad guarantees”, that NATO would not expand “one inch eastward”.
This has been brought up many times. Nothing was ever signed - no treaty, memorandum of understanding, etc.

And at any rate, this is another red herring. Putin entertained having Russia join NATO in the early naughts - obviously NATO expansion (already completed to a large degree) did not frighten him then. It's when he decided to start invading neighbors and taking their territory a few years later than this "fear" was rolled out as "justification." And there were many others since then.
 
Perhaps Russians see NATO as cover for USA 'invasions' of eastern European countries ? Of course it is not but that may be the mindset.
As opposed to the actual invasions that Russia has done, complete with indiscriminate bombing and annexation of territory in three sovereign nations?

If there is a way to try to excuse Russian crimes, Western liberals WILL ferret them out.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/30/georgia-attacks-unjustifiable-eu

> The basis for the peacekeeping activities of the Russian Federation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone is the Sochi Agreement of 1992, as well as the decisions of the Joint Control Commission (JCC) established in accordance with the aforementioned agreement. In South Ossetia, Russian troops, together with Georgian and Ossetian military, are part of the Mixed Peacekeeping Forces (MTSF) in the conflict zone. The SSPM consists of three peacekeeping battalions. Each side – Georgian, Russian and Ossetian - has the right to deploy a peacekeeping battalion consisting of no more than 500 military personnel in the conflict zone. But, in addition, they can also additionally deploy another 300 military personnel with the permission of the CCM.
After Russians killed a lot of Georgians in a short but brutal war. Tzchinvali was basically flattened by Russian shelling. That's why Georgians hate you and fight and die for Ukraine. As do Moldovans and Belorussians.

Your country invaded and is illegally occupying three sovereign nations - Moldova since 1991, Georgia since 2008, parts of Ukraine since 2014 and much more since February 2022, since you attempted to invade the entire country.

You are a pariah nation, led by a sick madman, very much like North Korea. Russian future under Putin is toward its own, second disintegration. Your country must be walked off from the rest of the world

Hopefully, something viable and good will rise from the former Russian territory. However, the history of the last 120 years have not been promising. This land produced not one monstrous entity that threatened the very existence of the world, but two - Soviet Union and Putin's Russia - a rare occurrence in world history.
 
Including the father of a dear friend of mine in Tbilisi!
Georgians remember this very well - that's why a battalion of them are fighting Russians in Ukraine.

What makes Russian aggression so galling is that they ALWAYS say that the victims did it to themselves - Georgians destroying their own cities, Ukranians killing themselves with hands tied behind their back, Syrians poisoning themselves with chemicals, etc. And they have their "repeaters" like ones we have here spread this manure around.

Even Armenia - long a Russian ally - has soured on the "Big Brother" after Russia sold them out in the last war and recent Azeri advances.
 
I disagree, Trump's foreign policy (if one can call a collection of instincts a policy) was very aggressive to other countries, and more so than Biden's: see Mexico and China in particular.

(EDIT, for the avoidance of doubt and rabbit holes): None of which has any relevance to Putin's imperialistic war of aggression on neighbours in E. Europe.

And let's not forget how he treated some of America's allies.
 
i'm wondering how come that neither checnya nor georgia yield so much support from the west like ukraine?

was there a topic on PFM at least?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


advertisement


Back
Top