tonerei
pfm Member
Looking from this side of the canal I would take a right wing Labour government any day over the other right wing party
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer V
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Looking from this side of the canal I would take a right wing Labour government any day over the other right wing party
Tony L
Administrator
Looking from this side of the canal I would take a right wing Labour government any day over the other right wing party
The problem is they won’t do anything to alter any of the structural failure that led this country to this place. They may be rather milder and more moderate than the Tories, but they are still two very slightly different variations on a blue screen of death. It is a system fail.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Given that no cabinet will ever be entirely to my taste, a non-activist's take might be:
1. Starmer is a huge disappointment so far, but Raynor is a liability.
2. Cooper has been making Patel's life a misery, I can see why that has been done.
3. Streeting I don't know enough and will watch closely.
4. Ed has looked more confident and effective of late, especially compared to his leadership days.
5. If Cat Smith thinks Corbyn's membership is on voter's or potential voter's critical path, I suggest she tests that. The PR position is more of an issue, but not a hill to die on at this stage. It is a fight to have when you've re-established some consistent command of the polls.
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droodzilla
pfm Member
1. Starmer is a huge disappointment so far, but Raynor is a liability.
Agree on Starmer, obvs. Dunno if Raynor is a liability as such but I think she's an opportunist and lacks solid principles. I would like to see more people ffrom her kind of background as MPs though - we desperately need to move away from the "MP = posh man in a smart suit" mindset.
2. Cooper has been making Patel's life a misery, I can see why that has been done.
I'm sure Cooper will hold Patel to account. However, as Labour's strategy is to attack from the right on immigration, this prospect does not thrill me.
3. Streeting I don't know enough and will watch closely.
I suppose he's seen as "a good media performer" (debatable). To me he's just another liar who will say and do anything to get power. People like him are why the UK is in this mess.
4. Ed has looked more confident and effective of late, especially compared to his leadership days.
I like Ed but (positive spin aside) this is widely seen as a move to sideline him and replace him with someone more "business friendly". He has certainly been in the sights of the Labour right for some time.
5. If Cat Smith thinks Corbyn's membership is on voter's or potential voter's critical path, I suggest she tests that. The PR position is more of an issue, but not a hill to die at this stage. It is a fight to have when you've re-established some consistent command of the polls.
a. Cat Smith does not think that and nor do I. However, the treatment of Corbyn is a source of needless and continuing acrimony within the party. Many activists will simply refuse to campaign for the party until the whip is restored. It also threatens to become a big story at the next election unless it is dealt with now. Corbyn's suspension from the party was ended by a five member panel of the NEC (which, if anything, had a slight anti-Corbyn bias) and that should have been the end of the matter. Instead, Starmer chose not to restore the Labour whip to him and painted himself into a corner. Starmer also reneged on a deal that had been brokered by Len McCluskey and Angela Raynor, so the whole affair raises several important matters of principle.
b. I tend to agree, although I do think that Labour should be planting the seeds of this idea soon. Significant changes like this need to be nurtured, you can't just spring them on the electorate. At present, I see no inclination to do this, and many members of the PLP appear to be opposed (note: this cuts across the usual left-right factional lines in the party). This contrasts with a very clear majority of members who are in favour of PR.
It boils down to where you draw the line between principle and pragmatism. For me, the Labour Party vanished over the horizon of where I could ever vote for them about a year ago. They could win me back even if they returned to something like Milliband's weak version of social democracy in 2015, but all the evidence points to them moving further rightwards. I will not vote for that.
Tony L
Administrator
I suspect that is the most likely outcome at this stage, possibly with Labour the largest party.
I don’t see how Labour could win a majority as they are just too weak and so easily shot in a barrel by the right-wing press (Corbyn still on the radar etc). Their surgical removal from Scotland by the vastly more credible SNP has almost certainly finished them as a FPTP contender, but they are likely too slow moving and wedded to their mid-20th century glory days to grasp this. They really do need to wake up and grasp that the only times they have ever challenged Tory rule was a very brief period under Attlee, a couple of times under Wilson, and then Blair. That is the entirety of Labour success over the 120 year period of its existence. The Attlee government is notable as it is one of very few UK governments that left things better than they found them. Wilson was probably a net gain, and Blair who was really just a Tory rebranding with all the deregulated free-market, war-mongering and outsourcing one would expect from an old-school (i.e. pre-Trump-era) Tory government, albeit a more equitable approach to health and education.
I hope to hell that Labour wake up and grasp the only possible way forward for the UK is a shared PR manifesto pledge with all other progressive parties that moves to implement immediately in the case of a hung/coalition parliament. That is the only way to purge minority elite rule from the UK. Everything else is rearranging deckchairs on a sinking Tory nation.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Voting for the less bad option with no illusions is all I've ever done - under our system and pretty much all I expect to do until my toes curl. Apart from the odd tactical vote where there really was no chance of unseating a local MP with anyone else. I will continue to whine and moan about the lack of alternatives, gullibility of people voting against their interests, media bias and all the other things that remain constant - but when elections come, I will vote and occasionally doorstep for the alternative to the Tories most likely to win and that's Labour. Anything else is a wasted vote no matter how fuzzy the feelings.
Despite the hostility and accusations, no Labour government has been as bad as the Tories always are. But no Labour government has been anything like as good as they should be in my lifetime, 'twas ever thus. Yes my whole political life has been an empty, futile quest, for something that just limits damage, sometimes marginally. But those margins are always worthwhile and it's that last bit that gets me to the polling station, as I say, with no illusions.
Seanm
pfm Member
It’s possible people have a different take to yours without it being based on “fuzzy feelings”.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Of course, as long you are happy that a vote for a party with no chance is just that, knock yourself out.
Seanm
pfm Member
Fuzzy Sensible feels.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
There seems to be a range of Labour-ish supporters on pfm:
1) 'I never voted Labour until Corbyn became leader and won't vote for them again.'
2) 'I always voted Labour until Blair cocked it all up.'
3) 'I always voted Labour until Corbyn cocked it all up'
4) 'I always voted Labour and always will'
(Slight exaggeration, but hey, this is pfm).
What's interesting is the proportion of 'conditional' Labour voters. There are relatively few 'out' Tory voters on here, but it seems to me they are less likely to stop voting Tory if the Party changes leader.
1) 'I never voted Labour until Corbyn became leader and won't vote for them again.'
2) 'I always voted Labour until Blair cocked it all up.'
3) 'I always voted Labour until Corbyn cocked it all up'
4) 'I always voted Labour and always will'
(Slight exaggeration, but hey, this is pfm).
What's interesting is the proportion of 'conditional' Labour voters. There are relatively few 'out' Tory voters on here, but it seems to me they are less likely to stop voting Tory if the Party changes leader.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
‘Shy Tories’ and who can blame them.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Much more 'sensible' to stay in permanent opposition with sparty cred intact.
Seanm
pfm Member
Conservatism is fairly straightforward. The LP is just intrinsically conflicted. The dividing line between progressive and reactionary politics in Britain runs straight through the Labour Party. As often as not this expresses itself in the petulance of its key players and as frustrating to watch as that is it's not the main issue. The different factions represent fundamentally different kinds of politics and one side really is much, much closer to the Conservatives than it is the other half of its own party. It's an absurd situation but what can you do.
Seanm
pfm Member
Or think about the situation rather than enjoy the feels.
I can take the patronising takes or the cluelessness but both together is hard going.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
And to think you should be used to it, the way you dish it out but hey.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Agreed. And of course Brexit was the wedge that split the 'traditional' Labour seats in the North away from the Party. Previous non-Tory parties (Whigs, Liberals) have split on issues of principle, such as voting reform and free trade. I guess a principle-free Party avoids such problems.
Seanm
pfm Member
I take the trouble to alternate.
Honestly, you have your take on things and that's fine, but you cannot ever express it without slipping in some crude straw man or ad hom cliche. Drood took the time to offer a long, well-reasoned response to your post and what does he get? Oh, he's not grown up enough to see the bigger picture, just likes the feels. Eternal opposition and purity tropes following in quick succession.
droodzilla
pfm Member
I always voted Labour until Starmer (and I was happy to give him a chance for nearly twelve months).
Agree with your comment about Tory voters.
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