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Gas and Electricity Prices

Richard Lines said:
Working fine in our 1859 stone built farmhouse........................, it can be made to work anywhere.
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If I was renovating our cottage now I'd definitely put underfloor heating and would probably have also put in a ground source heating option plus whatever solar panels we could reasonably fit. The cottage was completely (and well) renovated in 2003 though, and that included an updated (and effective), radiator based central heating system (plus a wood burner in the lounge) as well as what seems like pretty effective insulation and double glazing, plus it also had a new oil fired boiler last year. Switching to ground source heating now would mean upgrading & replacing all of that, as well as fitting the new system and finding a home for a hot water tank. That'd be a lot of money - maybe £30K at a guess - with not the tiniest chance of payback in the time I'm likely to own it (or maybe even in my lifetime) sadly. I do have the funds to do that, but it'd be lunacy IMHO.

When I sell my main house (which could be within a couple of years) we might well either buy or build something more eco-friendly (we were close to buying a plot and building an eco-house before we bought our cottage in fact) though.
 
It must cost a fortune to run electricity cables and piped water out to places in the countryside yet those folk who benefit don't pay any more than a person in a one bed flat in a town for the luxury.Maybe if they faced the real cost they'd realise the collective contribution approach is better than not paying and having to drink rainwater and crap in a bucket by candle light;-)
 
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cooky1257 said:
It must cost a fortune to run electricity cables and piped water out to places in the countryside yet those folk who benefit don't pay any more than a person in a one bed flat in a town for the luxury.Maybe if they faced the real cost they'd realise the collective contribution approach is better than not paying and drinking rainwater and crappping in a bucket by candle light;-)
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I think you'll find that it's often the case that the piped water comes from the countryside and is often pumped long distances into the cities. And these days a lot of electricity is generated in the countryside as well, and pumped into cities. Power stations or large water reservoirs would be a rarity in a city centre...
 
SteveG said:
I think you'll find that it's often the case that the piped water comes from the countryside and is often pumped long distances into the cities. And these days a lot of electricity is generated in the countryside as well, and pumped into cities. Power stations or large water reservoirs would be a rarity in a city centre...
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Haha I think you are missing the point.
 
SteveG said:
I did think it was tongue in cheek but wanted to point it out anyway!

I kinda have one foot in each camp as I've a city house and a rural one.
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I'm trying to point out to Ponty what happens if you take the 'why should I pay....?" to its logical conclusion. My local council (Wirral)had a programme of adding external insulation and double glazing to its rental housing stock but it was Euro money which I assume has now dried up. I did look into getting it done on my own property but it was just beyond my means at the time.
Given the existential threat I can't think of a better thing for any government to spend its/ our money on.
 
cooky1257 said:
Given the existential threat I can't think of a better thing for any government to spend its/ our money on.
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It'll be interesting to hear what'll happen here in Scotland as the scheme that had been running to part fund replacement gas/oil boilers has been pulled as part of the agreement with the Greens. I'm hoping there will be a replacement scheme that's focused more on environmentally friendly alternatives as that could be something I'd make use of.
 
cooky1257 said:
I'm trying to point out to Ponty what happens if you take the 'why should I pay....?" to its logical conclusion. My local council (Wirral)had a programme of adding external insulation and double glazing to its rental housing stock but it was Euro money which I assume has now dried up. I did look into getting it done on my own property but it was just beyond my means at the time.
Given the existential threat I can't think of a better thing for any government to spend its/ our money on.
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I get it, but not for privately owned property. A property is an expensive thing to run. The cost of boilers, insulation etc should be borne by the legal owner, not the state. The problem with all this is that’s there’s no universally correct solution. I’m in the sticks, no mains gas, 6ft snow drifts in the winter, which means I can be cut off for 2 or 3 weeks. Everyone I know who has a GSHP, heat recovery systems etc has all sorts of problems and they cost a fortune to run. I’ve got the space for it (looked into it) but the last thing I need is heating which goes wrong when no engineer could even get to me. I therefore coppice my own wood for fuel. Whatever happens, I can stay warm and cook. Back up generator if the power goes.

When you actually live in such environments, you realise you need resilience and a plan B (even C). When we renovated, we stuffed full of insulation everywhere, new timber double glazed windows etc, thermal store with solar thermal for hot water in the summer, wood burning Rayburn and 3 log burners, with rads which run off the store. It works in this environment, it wouldn’t work in the middle of Manchester. This is the piece govts so often miss with all their ‘initiatives’. I have a couple of places in towns, they are a doddle to live in by comparison. Efficient gas boilers with instant hot water and heating which cost relative buttons to run because they use so little. Horses for courses.
 
Ponty said:
All very noble. Why should other tax payers (many of whom can’t afford their own property) subsidise improvements to somebody else’s private property which will potentially increase its value and reduce its running costs?
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Same applies to many living in council or housing association homes, a family I know, who rent from a local association, has had double glazing, complete new kitchen, bathroom and heating system installed, their rental increase, zero.

A friend of mine who lives in association flat has had the outside of the building clad with insulation, a new kitchen and bathroom, rental increase, zero.

Where did the money come from, a government grant, so it is not only the private house owner who benefits for other tax payers contributions.

Do those people I referred to work, no, they live off the state, that's tax payers money, both have very nice large cars, smoke and drink and when they go shopping the boot is full at least twice a week.

As has been said upthread, with an attitude of I don't use that facility so why should I pay taxes to benefit others to me implies one does care not for the environment or your fellow humans.

I pay my taxes to benefit the whole of the population and the planet and I am not upset if there seems to be a gain for some, whatever their living or working conditions are.
 
Eyebroughty said:
Same applies to many living in council or housing association homes, a family I know, who rent from a local association, has had double glazing, complete new kitchen, bathroom and heating system installed, their rental increase, zero.

A friend of mine who lives in association flat has had the outside of the building clad with insulation, a new kitchen and bathroom, rental increase, zero.

Where did the money come from, a government grant, so it is not only the private house owner who benefits for other tax payers contributions.

Do those people I referred to work, no, they live off the state, that's tax payers money, both have very nice large cars, smoke and drink and when they go shopping the boot is full at least twice a week.

As has been said upthread, with an attitude of I don't use that facility so why should I pay taxes to benefit others to me implies one does care not for the environment or your fellow humans.

I pay my taxes to benefit the whole of the population and the planet and I am not upset if there seems to be a gain for some, whatever their living or working conditions are.
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You ought to send that to the the daily Heil letter page.
Could win you a prize.
 
Bob McC said:
You ought to send that to the the daily Heil letter page.
Could win you a prize.
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No, re-read the last two sentences - he's saying that a government scheme to insulate everyone would benefit private owners AND social housing tenants. In the aggregate, everyone wins. That's the nature of a social compact.
 
Eyebroughty said:
Same applies to many living in council or housing association homes, a family I know, who rent from a local association, has had double glazing, complete new kitchen, bathroom and heating system installed, their rental increase, zero.

A friend of mine who lives in association flat has had the outside of the building clad with insulation, a new kitchen and bathroom, rental increase, zero.

Where did the money come from, a government grant, so it is not only the private house owner who benefits for other tax payers contributions.

Do those people I referred to work, no, they live off the state, that's tax payers money, both have very nice large cars, smoke and drink and when they go shopping the boot is full at least twice a week.

As has been said upthread, with an attitude of I don't use that facility so why should I pay taxes to benefit others to me implies one does care not for the environment or your fellow humans.

I pay my taxes to benefit the whole of the population and the planet and I am not upset if there seems to be a gain for some, whatever their living or working conditions are.
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For private assets the legal owner should pay for all maintenance / improvements IMHO. They can encourage behaviours through taxation (eg VAT reduction on green boilers etc). The grants are a con, for example, when I installed the solar thermal, there was a govt scheme whereby the kit would cost about £8K and I’d have got a 50% grant. I bought the same kit from Worcester Bosch for £2K, plumber installed it in a couple of days (about £300 at the time). I’m £1,700 ahead and saved the taxpayer £4K. This is problem, they’re very good at pi$$ing (borrowed) money away.
 
Ponty said:
For private assets the legal owner should pay for all maintenance / improvements IMHO. They can encourage behaviours through taxation (eg VAT reduction on green boilers etc). The grants are a con, for example, when I installed the solar thermal, there was a govt scheme whereby the kit would cost about £8K and I’d have got a 50% grant. I bought the same kit from Worcester Bosch for £2K, plumber installed it in a couple of days (about £300 at the time). I’m £1,700 ahead and saved the taxpayer £4K. This is problem, they’re very good at pi$$ing (borrowed) money away.
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Agreed....companies that fulfil these contracts for govt grants exist to take the money rather than do a decent job. Complete con.
 
clivem2 said:
Agreed....companies that fulfil these contracts for govt grants exist to take the money rather than do a decent job. Complete con.
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In anticipation of further comments, this was under a labour govt but they’re all just as bad and inefficient. When you think about it, it should have been cheaper. They should be able to buy 10,000 kits or whatever from Worcester Bosch far cheaper than I can buy 1. It’s shocking.
 
Ponty said:
In anticipation of further comments, this was under a labour govt but they’re all just as bad and inefficient. When you think about it, it should have been cheaper. They should be able to buy 10,000 kits or whatever from Worcester Bosch far cheaper than I can buy 1. It’s shocking.
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Yep...eg PCR tests for holiday returners that you book but don't arrive or arrive too late.
 
Eyebroughty said:
Same applies to many living in council or housing association homes, a family I know, who rent from a local association, has had double glazing, complete new kitchen, bathroom and heating system installed, their rental increase, zero.

A friend of mine who lives in association flat has had the outside of the building clad with insulation, a new kitchen and bathroom, rental increase, zero.
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That whole "scroungers" trope really gets to me.

Mrs Seeker's Aunt lives in a housing association home. She's 77. She cannot get her rotting window frames replaced, not even treated and painted, let alone replaced with double glazing to keep her fuel bill down. Her kitchen is the same one that was fitted in 1991 and it's falling to bits. Mrs Seeker's cousin lives in a housing association home and it took them 5 years to get the drains sorted underneath their house. Five years. And that was a health issue (the house was regularly full of flies and it stunk) and, here's the kicker, the cousin works for the housing association as a janitor. In fact, most who live on the estate the cousin looks after are living in habitable (but only just) accommodation; it is due for demolition at some point but this keeps getting put off as the (tax payers') money is not there to do it.

Trust me, neither Aunt nor cousin are livin' high on the hog and kicking the a**e out of benefits. Neither have cars. They don't smoke, they drink but rarely go out to do so.

And their rent goes up, annually.

So for every case you can cite of those doing well in that situation, there are many more where, trust me, they aren't doing so well.
 
Why is gas so cheap in Belgium?

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Seeker_UK said:
That whole "scroungers" trope really gets to me.

Mrs Seeker's Aunt lives in a housing association home. She's 77. She cannot get her rotting window frames replaced, not even treated and painted, let alone replaced with double glazing to keep her fuel bill down. Her kitchen is the same one that was fitted in 1991 and it's falling to bits. Mrs Seeker's cousin lives in a housing association home and it took them 5 years to get the drains sorted underneath their house. Five years. And that was a health issue (the house was regularly full of flies and it stunk) and, here's the kicker, the cousin works for the housing association as a janitor. In fact, most who live on the estate the cousin looks after are living in habitable (but only just) accommodation; it is due for demolition at some point but this keeps getting put off as the (tax payers') money is not there to do it.

Trust me, neither Aunt nor cousin are livin' high on the hog and kicking the a**e out of benefits. Neither have cars. They don't smoke, they drink but rarely go out to do so.

And their rent goes up, annually.

So for every case you can cite of those doing well in that situation, there are many more where, trust me, they aren't doing so well.
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Unacceptable. Money should be spent on getting the basics right rather than ‘fad of the year’ projects. It really shouldn’t be that difficult.
 
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