Denafrips Ares II thoughts

[Musicraft]

I think we all understand that, but the hyperbole employed reduces credibility.

Sorry, but that's reality. And I'm sure you already know that, and are simply engaging in the Linn hyperbole mentioned in a different thread - where Linn claimed the Akito was better than an Ittok.

Shortly before our client (who bought the first GAIA DDC on 06/06/21) left the store asked me "Come on Rick is the GAIA really going to help improve the performance of my DAC (Esoteric D-02X)?"

"I'll be frank with you and I hate to say this however as good as your DAC is remove the GAIA and your DAC will sound somewhat blurred and woolly"

"Yeah alright Rick"

Monday afternoon 07/06/21 our client called me -

"You know what Rick. I thought this was all salesmanship from you. But you were right because the GAIA is simply wonderful"

Btw, I don't know anything about what is/has been mentioned about Linn elsewhere.

 

[flutteringwow]

Still not commented on source.

 

[DimitryZ]

Nobody’s yet (AFAICT) addressed the question of whether, for a given ££££, splitting the money between DAC and separate DDC will be better than buying a better single DAC and no DDC…

One box. There is no reason that making a functional copy of the DDC that's already in your DAC and putting it into a separate box will be better. However, since I2S was designed as a short distance communication protocol (inside the box), it's severely limited in length. @mansr recently calculated that maximum practical length for I2S cable is about 1.5 meters.

 

[JTC]

OK. Will be looking at a single box then.

 

[flutteringwow]

How big will a box need to be then, as there is a lot of kit in the DDC box and one of the higher end DAC's. Multiple power internal supplies will also be needed.

Coffee table size?

Also, why use USB? if you use a coaxial, then all this USB re-clocking isn't needed?

 

[Heckyman]

Shortly before our client (who bought the first GAIA DDC on 06/06/21) left the store asked me "Come on Rick is the GAIA really going to help improve the performance of my DAC (Esoteric D-02X)?"

DDCs are as much about improving the performance of the source as the DAC. A £17.5K DAC would warrant a £10K+ server e.g. Taiko Audio Extreme, Antipodes K50 or Grimm MU-1. The former is generally connected directly over USB (using v. expensive USB cables!), the two latter tend to be connected over SPDIF (Grimm has not even got a USB out) and already have reclocking circuits built in.

There’s some useful context in this review of the Denafrips Iris DDC:
https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-iris-usb-digital-to-digital-converter/

“All USB audio sources are not created equal, and all USB DACs are not created equal. This makes making any kind of sweeping generalizations about the effectiveness of things that sit between point A, the USB audio source, e.g. a Raspberry Pi, and Point B, a DAC, damn near impossible.”​

He notes the Iris DDC raises the performance of a RPi 4 to just above the new Primare Prisma NP5 Network Player (at around the same price point as the Pi+DDC).

Also pertinent to this thread, he notes that the better the DAC, the less there is to be gained from the DDC.

This squares with my own experience of a few different DDCs/DACs. Generally (but not always) they improve things and sometimes the improvement is enough to justify the extra box/cables/cost.

 

[DimitryZ]

DDCs are as much about improving the performance of the source as the DAC. A £17.5K DAC would warrant a £10K+ server e.g. Taiko Audio Extreme, Antipodes K50 or Grimm MU-1. The former is generally connected directly over USB (using v. expensive USB cables!), the two latter tend to be connected over SPDIF (Grimm has not even got a USB out) and already have reclocking circuits built in.

There’s some useful context in this review of the Denafrips Iris DDC:
https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-iris-usb-digital-to-digital-converter/

“All USB audio sources are not created equal, and all USB DACs are not created equal. This makes making any kind of sweeping generalizations about the effectiveness of things that sit between point A, the USB audio source, e.g. a Raspberry Pi, and Point B, a DAC, damn near impossible.”​

He notes the Iris DDC raises the performance of a RPi 4 to just above the new Primare Prisma NP5 Network Player (at around the same price point as the Pi+DDC).

Also pertinent to this thread, he notes that the better the DAC, the less there is to be gained from the DDC.

This squares with my own experience of a few different DDCs/DACs. Generally (but not always) they improve things and sometimes the improvement is enough to justify the extra box/cables/cost.

I would gently suggest that since every DAC has a built-in DDC, it's the quality of that subsystem that would inform ones' decision to buy a substitute.

 

[JTC]

Just pulled the trigger. Bit of a punt but I am sure it will be a worthwhile improvement over my Mytek. Venus II btw; figured the Terminator or Terminator Plus was just too much for comfort, and the Pontus II would perhaps have had me wondering about the Venus II anyway.... should have it in a couple of weeks...

 

[DimitryZ]

Just pulled the trigger. Bit of a punt but I am sure it will be a worthwhile improvement over my Mytek. Venus II btw; figured the Terminator or Terminator Plus was just too much for comfort, and the Pontus II would perhaps have had me wondering about the Venus II anyway.... should have it in a couple of weeks...

Congratulations!

My first modern R2R is Musician Pegasus. I think you will find your choice to be excellent.

 

[Heckyman]

I would gently suggest that since every DAC has a built-in DDC, it's the quality of that subsystem that would inform ones' decision to buy a substitute.

Hi Dimitry, that's the second time you made this gentle suggestion...are you going in competition with Musicraft?

Edit: as I quoted, "the better the DAC, the less there is to be gained from the DDC". So I don't disagree with you in essence. It's just that you can't be sure at what point the effect of this extra box goes from jaw dropping to marginal to waste of money. This depends on the specific source, DDC, DAC and even cables, not to mention personal preference.

 

[DimitryZ]

Hi Dimitry, that's the second time you made this gentle suggestion...are you going in competition with Musicraft?

Edit: as I quoted, "the better the DAC, the less there is to be gained from the DDC". So I don't disagree with you in essence. It's just that you can't be sure at what point the effect of this extra box goes from jaw dropping to marginal to waste of money. This depends on the specific source, DDC, DAC and even cables, not to mention personal preference.

I agree.

I am simply pointing out that every DAC has a DDC built-in. One can choose whether to ignore this stage and to buy an external one. However, one must be informed about the I2S protocol being originally designed for short (one box) use.

 

[flutteringwow]

I agree.

I am simply pointing out that every DAC has a DDC built-in. One can choose whether to ignore this stage and to buy an external one. However, one must be informed about the I2S protocol being originally designed for short (one box) use.

I'm sure you've said this five times already in this very thread. You know, on the internet, in forums, what you write stays (unless personally removed), so if it's not been removed, it's still there, it's like magic! so no need to repeat.

DDCs are as much about improving the performance of the source as the DAC. A £17.5K DAC would warrant a £10K+ server e.g. Taiko Audio Extreme, Antipodes K50 or Grimm MU-1. The former is generally connected directly over USB (using v. expensive USB cables!), the two latter tend to be connected over SPDIF (Grimm has not even got a USB out) and already have reclocking circuits built in.

There’s some useful context in this review of the Denafrips Iris DDC:
https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-iris-usb-digital-to-digital-converter/

“All USB audio sources are not created equal, and all USB DACs are not created equal. This makes making any kind of sweeping generalizations about the effectiveness of things that sit between point A, the USB audio source, e.g. a Raspberry Pi, and Point B, a DAC, damn near impossible.”​

He notes the Iris DDC raises the performance of a RPi 4 to just above the new Primare Prisma NP5 Network Player (at around the same price point as the Pi+DDC).

Also pertinent to this thread, he notes that the better the DAC, the less there is to be gained from the DDC.

This squares with my own experience of a few different DDCs/DACs. Generally (but not always) they improve things and sometimes the improvement is enough to justify the extra box/cables/cost.

From everything that has been said, it essentially means that the USB signal is being 'cleaned' for want of a better word. The Source is probably the most important element in all of this, and then the DAC. The Re-clocker 'fixes' or attempts to fix whatever the source is sending, how bad it is etc. Hence why a Rpi can be made to sound good like a dedicated streamer. The DAC then has a much better material to work with. If you use a properly engineered transport and dac, then the reclocker has less to do, so its effects won't be as pronounced. However what the 'cost' is to get a network player and dac at the level where a reclocker isn't needed remains to be seen.

Having tested a few streamers this week, I have found that it's definitely true about the source. Having put a Bluesound Node 2i, Primare NP5 and Meridian 210 up against my Naim ND5XS2 as transport only mode, the quality difference was breathtaking. Thankgod I never sold my NAIM thinking a Bluesound would do as a transport, I was very wrong in that assumption!

With the Naim not having a USB out, I wouldn't be able to check the difference a reclocker would make in this chain. But my silent NAS/Roon core does have a USB out, so I could try one using that feed into my DAC.

 

[mansr]

One box. There is no reason that making a functional copy of the DDC that's already in your DAC and putting it into a separate box will be better. However, since I2S was designed as a short distance communication protocol (inside the box), it's severely limited in length. @mansr recently calculated that maximum practical length for I2S cable is about 1.5 meters.

If I've ever posted such a calculation, I must have been drunk at the time. That said, it is correct that I2S is only meant for short runs between chips on a PCB. Using it between boxes will not improve anything.

 

[JTC]

Having tested a few streamers this week, I have found that it's definitely true about the source. Having put a Bluesound Node 2i, Primare NP5 and Meridian 210 up against my Naim ND5XS2 as transport only mode, the quality difference was breathtaking. Thankgod I never sold my NAIM thinking a Bluesound would do as a transport, I was very wrong in that assumption!

I'm always curious about statements like this, and I read them often enough to think there must be some truth in them, but in my own experience I've yet to hear a significant difference in audio quality from digital transports, being connected to the same DAC. I;m running a Node 2i and I can't really fault it, and it's difficult to comprehend what it might not be doing, relative to more expensive transports or streamers, though maybe if I were an A/B/A/B switcheroo type I daresay I might hear a difference. But surely the improvements between digital transports/streamers must in turn be an order of magnitude less than that between DACs, which in turn is going to be less than amps, yadda yadda speakers....

 

[flutteringwow]

I'm always curious about statements like this, and I read them often enough to think there must be some truth in them, but in my own experience I've yet to hear a significant difference in audio quality from digital transports, being connected to the same DAC. I;m running a Node 2i and I can't really fault it, and it's difficult to comprehend what it might not be doing, relative to more expensive transports or streamers, though maybe if I were an A/B/A/B switcheroo type I daresay I might hear a difference. But surely the improvements between digital transports/streamers must in turn be an order of magnitude less than that between DACs, which in turn is going to be less than amps, yadda yadda speakers....

The differences were fairly obvious to me being honest. Much more than I expected, as I really wanted to sell the Naim and use a Bluesound to save a few quid.

Not so much between the Node, NP5 and Meridian 210, (the Np5 was clearly the worst though), but between those and the Naim was big.

I spent a week playing around, doing some semi blind testing always came out knowing the Naim. I would put the Bluesound second, and the 210 third, NP5 fourth.

The quality of the source, is becoming in my opinion, equally as important as the DAC, and I believe the majority of the SQ improvements are based around power supplies. I think a Bluesound with an LPS and the common PSU tweak would bring it closer to the NAIM but I only had a bog standard one to try. The Naim was the only unit using a proper Toroidal power supply.

For me now, I feel that it's wasteful to spend huge amounts on a good DAC and feed a poor quality source - probably why this USB re-clocker was invented as mentioned by Hecky earlier with the ability to improve a RPI. Having just bought a really nice R2R, an Aqua La Voce S3 (which I would love to compare against your Venus if you live near London!) I want to get the most from it, and the Node definitely didn't give me that when the Naim was present.

I'm on the cusp of ordering an Innous Zen or Zenith, if I manage to push myself over the emotional hurdle of the cost lol, I'll be able to compare against the Naim. If theres no improvement, it will go back and Ill be satisfied that the Naim is as far as I can go at this sort of price range.

One thing I do know now, is how good the Naim is at pretty much everything. As a one box solution, its probably the best on the market at its price point, and probably a fair bit beyond that.

 

[DimitryZ]

If I've ever posted such a calculation, I must have been drunk at the time. That said, it is correct that I2S is only meant for short runs between chips on a PCB. Using it between boxes will not improve anything.

You did, on ASR, and seemed sober at the time.

 

[DimitryZ]

I'm sure you've said this five times already in this very thread. You know, on the internet, in forums, what you write stays (unless personally removed), so if it's not been removed, it's still there, it's like magic! so no need to repeat.



From everything that has been said, it essentially means that the USB signal is being 'cleaned' for want of a better word. The Source is probably the most important element in all of this, and then the DAC. The Re-clocker 'fixes' or attempts to fix whatever the source is sending, how bad it is etc. Hence why a Rpi can be made to sound good like a dedicated streamer. The DAC then has a much better material to work with. If you use a properly engineered transport and dac, then the reclocker has less to do, so its effects won't be as pronounced. However what the 'cost' is to get a network player and dac at the level where a reclocker isn't needed remains to be seen.

Having tested a few streamers this week, I have found that it's definitely true about the source. Having put a Bluesound Node 2i, Primare NP5 and Meridian 210 up against my Naim ND5XS2 as transport only mode, the quality difference was breathtaking. Thankgod I never sold my NAIM thinking a Bluesound would do as a transport, I was very wrong in that assumption!

With the Naim not having a USB out, I wouldn't be able to check the difference a reclocker would make in this chain. But my silent NAS/Roon core does have a USB out, so I could try one using that feed into my DAC.

It's definitely worth repeating, as evidenced by your explanation as to what the "reclocker" is doing.

In asynchronous mode, the source is simply supplying data, at the control of the DAC. That is all. The clock is in the DAC. The receiver is there, too. I2S interface is there as well.

You can turn off the internal DDC, put those bits in another box with another power supply and connect them up - but they are functionality identical. The big difference is that you are $1-3K poorer.

 

[mansr]

You did, on ASR, and seemed sober at the time.

Well, either I made a mistake, or you've misunderstood the context. Got a link to the post?

 

[flutteringwow]

It's definitely worth repeating, as evidenced by your explanation as to what the "reclocker" is doing.

In asynchronous mode, the source is simply supplying data, at the control of the DAC. That is all. The clock is in the DAC. The receiver is there, too. I2S interface is there as well.

You can turn off the internal DDC, put those bits in another box with another power supply and connect them up - but they are functionality identical. The big difference is that you are $1-3K poorer.

Yawn.

 

[mansr]

Yawn.

He's right, though.