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Why should NHS have a pay rise?

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dweezil said:
I'm similar, 3 yearly renewals and a quota of points to be gained each year for various continual professional development courses.

As always a fee is involved which sometimes seems the main point of the exercise.
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I get the point of the fee, it has gone up a bit since I last paid it.

I think the main point of the exercise is to weed out Nurses who think that they can keep their registration without keeping themselves updated. Or those who haven’t been Nursing for a while, and come back after ten years, thinking they can walk back into practice.

Think of it like an M.O.T?
 
Andrew L Weekes said:
My wife needs to keep her registration valid in order to qualify for the ability to take some of her pension early without penalty, which should then enable her to retire early and then do some bank work, or something else, as and when she feels able or wants to.
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Excellent.

I am not sure, but I think along with education, one has to have a certain amount of actual Nursing to keep your registration. From memory it is something like ten days in three years??? But that has probably changed.

I think pilots have to fly so many hours per year, or something similar to keep their license?
 
2.1 per cent "was" the plan. I would add a one off gratuity to this.

I am not sure that backing the original plan is reckless. It is certainly possible, and, under the circumstances, eminently reasonable from the public spending angle.

The government position is not so much reckless as plain horrible, particularly after the [apparently] weasel words about gratitude for his care [after he had treatment for Covid] from Mr Johnson.

Just two pence' worth, George
 
Seanm said:
I was only being bitter. 5% is what Labour campaigned on in the 2019 election, and given the context anything less is derisory. It’s easily affordable and in terms of public support they’d be pushing on an open door:

https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1370002926568153090?s=21
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A point put to Angela Rayner this morning:

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1369917936975151104

Her response boils down to the fact that Labour lost in 2019. In that case...

https://twitter.com/iammightor/status/1369953581965713409

EwMNhRiXMAUiKoI
 
Big Tabs said:
Nursing has a lot less physical impact due to various mechanical aids and ‘moving and handling’ policies. In theory.
Most of the job (in a general sense) is ‘on your feet.’
Gone are the days when you would help make 30 beds on a ‘bed’ round. (blinking hope so)
I think were old studies that revealed that nurses would walk miles and lift tons of weight in a shift. (ahh, the good old bad days)

By far I think in my opinion is the mental effect. Insipid and easy to ignore, as you are too busy.

It must be the same for Police, Ambulance, Armed Forces and many other disciples.
You see and experience things that people make films or T.V. programmes about. Dramatised real life emergency situations.

One of the reasons I avoid that kind of television.

Nurses retirement age lowering would be nice.
I think the Police and Fireworkers can retire early? (apologies if incorrect)
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in the community the work is very very heavy . Many clients are severely obese and nurses have to lift legs and care in dreadful situations. Very heavy wrapping 3 or 4 layers of bandages daily on legs measuring some 1m metre in diameter!! The repetition of doing this is very wearing
 
hifinutt said:
in the community the work is very very heavy . Many clients are severely obese and nurses have to lift legs and care in dreadful situations. Very heavy wrapping 3 or 4 layers of bandages daily on legs measuring some 1m metre in diameter!! The repetition of doing this is very wearing
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I have done a bit of community nursing and understand, particularly the ‘dreadful situations.’
Sticky floors. Definitely refuse any offer of tea.
Bandaging a heavy limb without assistance from the person or a colleague, plus the environment challenges. And the schedule of the day whirring around ones head. The engagement with the person takes away from the repetition, up to a point. And there may be communication challenges.
 
ks.234 said:
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Again, show me the staff who actually get paid for hours worked over standard contract. It just never happens in reality.

(Exception - consultants, anaesthetists and theatre staff doing planned weekend surgery lists). But that’s a drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority putting in extra hours daily, week on week.

Sorry, but I’ve managed millions to half a billion pounds of NHS budgets over a 15 year period, it just doesn’t happen.
 
crimsondonkey said:
Again, show me the staff who actually get paid for hours worked over standard contract. It just never happens in reality.

(Exception - consultants, anaesthetists and theatre staff doing planned weekend surgery lists). But that’s a drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority putting in extra hours daily, week on week.

Sorry, but I’ve managed millions to half a billion pounds of NHS budgets over a 15 year period, it just doesn’t happen.
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If nurses are entitled to get paid, or time off in lieu, why do they not claim that entitlement?

If that question sounds pissy, I apologise, but why nurses do not get what appears to be an entitlement is, I feel, an important question. Are they unaware of their right? Are they bullied out of them? Or do they give up their rights voluntarily?
 
ks.234 said:
If nurses are entitled to get paid, or time off in lieu, why do they not claim that entitlement?
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Because almost every nurse I know -

1. Puts patient care and their needs first
2. Cares about their colleagues and won’t do things that will add to their stress and workload.

It’s not as if nurses don’t know that they should be entitled to work safely and be paid for what they do, but the reality on the inside is completely different than commentators understand or fully appreciate.

ks.234 said:
Are they bullied out of them? Or do they give up their rights voluntarily?
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A bit of both.

When you go into the NHS you realise a few things quite quickly -

1. Long hours and no breaks, unpaid extended working have long been normalised whatever the rights or wrongs

2. Front line staffing numbers have been gradually and consistently eroded over the last decade or two

3. The culture reinforces the status quo, even before you get to the top down bullying that is part it, all normalised

4. Continual financial pressure embeds the position further. Even if you did genuinely want to make a difference and pay nurses in your service for their time I'm afraid the system will crush you into dust - the money for proper staffing levels disappeared long ago. Same argument for making patient parking free - the average hospital now desperately depends upon the £3-6m per year it receives to be able to cope (and most Trusts have been placed in artifical debt by austerity so it just ain't gonna happen).

5. The RCN don't have the best reputation in the eyes of the people it is meant to represent. Most view it as 'cushy' and divorced from the everyday realities of its paying members. My own daughter who is a qualified RMN and now high intensity pyscholigal therapist utterly despises the RCN and sees them as weak and betrayers of front line staff.

So whilst I genuinely appreciate the very logical truisms that point out the bleeding obvious that not employing enough people, not paying them for their time, placing them in invidious positions between patients and their own welfare, is not fair and shouldn't be allowed, I'm afraid the reality inside the institution is not as simple as just saying 'well don't put up with it'.

There's also a world of difference between the amount of influence that say the Health Care Assistant on your ward who probably spends the most hands on time looking after you (influence = nil) has over working arrangements, conditions and pay, and the consultant who clinically oversees your treatment (influence = huge and well beyond the job description). GPs are another example, as they contract in rather actually being 'owned' as part of the NHS. They can withdraw labour or more accurately cooperation or even provision of services - try doing that as a nurse and see what happens. Professionalising nursing has helped but as quickly as that has helped to improve salaries and progression (specialist and nurse managers earn high salaries nowadays), the health system quickly created a new powerless dogsbody with even less power.

Its the same old story, those with more economic power and influence do well, whilst those tied up by their principles get crumbs by virtue of their inability to leverage their value.
 
100% agree and as i mentioned , if you cannot do the work in the hours allotted [ even if its excessive] you run the risk of a time management referal to occupational health and all the stress that causes
 
crimsondonkey said:
Because almost every nurse I know -

1. Puts patient care and their needs first
2. Cares about their colleagues and won’t do things that will add to their stress and workload.

It’s not as if nurses don’t know that they should be entitled to work safely and be paid for what they do, but the reality on the inside is completely different than commentators understand or fully appreciate.



A bit of both.

When you go into the NHS you realise a few things quite quickly -

1. Long hours and no breaks, unpaid extended working have long been normalised whatever the rights or wrongs

2. Front line staffing numbers have been gradually and consistently eroded over the last decade or two

3. The culture reinforces the status quo, even before you get to the top down bullying that is part it, all normalised

4. Continual financial pressure embeds the position further. Even if you did genuinely want to make a difference and pay nurses in your service for their time I'm afraid the system will crush you into dust - the money for proper staffing levels disappeared long ago. Same argument for making patient parking free - the average hospital now desperately depends upon the £3-6m per year it receives to be able to cope (and most Trusts have been placed in artifical debt by austerity so it just ain't gonna happen).

5. The RCN don't have the best reputation in the eyes of the people it is meant to represent. Most view it as 'cushy' and divorced from the everyday realities of its paying members. My own daughter who is a qualified RMN and now high intensity pyscholigal therapist utterly despises the RCN and sees them as weak and betrayers of front line staff.

So whilst I genuinely appreciate the very logical truisms that point out the bleeding obvious that not employing enough people, not paying them for their time, placing them in invidious positions between patients and their own welfare, is not fair and shouldn't be allowed, I'm afraid the reality inside the institution is not as simple as just saying 'well don't put up with it'.

There's also a world of difference between the amount of influence that say the Health Care Assistant on your ward who probably spends the most hands on time looking after you (influence = nil) has over working arrangements, conditions and pay, and the consultant who clinically oversees your treatment (influence = huge and well beyond the job description). GPs are another example, as they contract in rather actually being 'owned' as part of the NHS. They can withdraw labour or more accurately cooperation or even provision of services - try doing that as a nurse and see what happens. Professionalising nursing has helped but as quickly as that has helped to improve salaries and progression (specialist and nurse managers earn high salaries nowadays), the health system quickly created a new powerless dogsbody with even less power.

Its the same old story, those with more economic power and influence do well, whilst those tied up by their principles get crumbs by virtue of their inability to leverage their value.
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Sorry, I don’t understand. Putting aside the two fingered message that the government 1% represents, why are nurses themselves are angry at a 1% pay rise they see it as inadequate, while at the same time they choose not to take their entitlement for extra pay for different reasons?

If there is a culture that puts barriers between nurses and their receiving their proper entitlements then they should organise to expose that culture
 
crimsondonkey said:
5. The RCN don't have the best reputation in the eyes of the people it is meant to represent. Most view it as 'cushy' and divorced from the everyday realities of its paying members. My own daughter who is a qualified RMN and now high intensity pyscholigal therapist utterly despises the RCN and sees them as weak and betrayers of front line staff.
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Not sure I understand this.

The RCN has set out an entitlement to overtime pay, but nurses choose to ignore their entitlements, and the RCN is at fault?

Your daughter is correct in that unions are weak, but they are weak because of government attacks and more significantly from a lack of support from its members.

Sorry, but I don’t understand how someone can despise their union, reject the entitlements set out by the union, then blame the union (partly at least) for not getting those entitlements
 
F@&k me it all very simple (simplistic) isn’t it?

All they have to do is organise and articulate they’re not going to stand for it anymore :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, over in the real world...
 
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