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Why should NHS have a pay rise?

djftw said:
It is interesting, and I have to say I admire your bravery in posting this. PFM is not especially charitable or understanding with people who dare to question the default position! On a personal level, with my family this has been very much on my mind. About half the immediate family of working age are in the NHS, and I can see exactly where you are coming from. All of them have had a hard time to some degree, but can I honestly say the Drs who have been working Covid wards (and no mistake have been working hard) are not in a far better position than those in the private sector who have lost their jobs or had their hours or wages cut? There is a very complex picture here when you compare public and private sector pay, and certainly not all NHS employees are as well remunerated as others... but, within my family the NHS employees out earned the private sector employees significantly before Covid. During the gap has widened and several in the private sector lost their jobs. I think some of them, my brother-in-law especially, has found some of it a bit embarrassing, being treated like a martyr for 'just getting on with it and doing his job' as he would have it, while seemingly everyone is far less concerned about other people around him who are having a far worse time than he is. I absolutely think you are right that this being at the top of so many people's agendas rather than say the 650,000 hospitality workers who have lost their jobs altogether etc. etc. is rather tone-deaf and actually indicative of a particularly vile sort of middle-class snobbery that sees a healthcare professional having to settle for a modest pay rise as somehow worse than a "lesser" worker being deprived of their livelihood altogether.
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If we’re going to take the moralism out of it and just see it as a technical problem, one way of helping people in the private sector would be to put money in people’s pocket, by, e.g., not cutting the wages of people working in the public sector.

No one has to lose out here (except the Conservative Party and their backers, so...)
 
The problem is, you may have an entitlement to claim overtime in your Ts&Cs but it counts for stuff all if your budget managers decide they don't pay it and you can only have TOIL.
 
djftw said:
It is interesting, and I have to say I admire your bravery in posting this. PFM is not especially charitable or understanding with people who dare to question the default position! On a personal level, with my family this has been very much on my mind. About half the immediate family of working age are in the NHS, and I can see exactly where you are coming from. All of them have had a hard time to some degree, but can I honestly say the Drs who have been working Covid wards (and no mistake have been working hard) are not in a far better position than those in the private sector who have lost their jobs or had their hours or wages cut? There is a very complex picture here when you compare public and private sector pay, and certainly not all NHS employees are as well remunerated as others... but, within my family the NHS employees out earned the private sector employees significantly before Covid. During the gap has widened and several in the private sector lost their jobs. I think some of them, my brother-in-law especially, has found some of it a bit embarrassing, being treated like a martyr for 'just getting on with it and doing his job' as he would have it, while seemingly everyone is far less concerned about other people around him who are having a far worse time than he is. I absolutely think you are right that this being at the top of so many people's agendas rather than say the 650,000 hospitality workers who have lost their jobs altogether etc. etc. is rather tone-deaf and actually indicative of a particularly vile sort of middle-class snobbery that sees a healthcare professional having to settle for a modest pay rise as somehow worse than a "lesser" worker being deprived of their livelihood altogether.
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This thread highlights the plight of (mostly) not very well paid employees in positions of great responsibility and vulnerability. Yes, there are many others, teachers, bus drivers etc who also deserve to have their pay raised, at least by the rate of inflation as they have endured 10 years of tory/lib-dem austerity. There are many others who have lost most of their income through no fault of their own.
Also, the billionaire press barons continue to live tax free, the big corporations pay low rates of tax and the VIP lane get billions for sod all.
Paying those on whom our lives depend a decent wage should not be beyond the 5th, 6th or 7th richest nation in the world. If it is then our model of "civilisation" deserves to be wiped out.
 
my daughter only gets paid per shift. if it runs over so be it, no add. pay, if she does an extra shift then this is paid
 
Seeker_UK said:
The problem is, you may have an entitlement to claim overtime in your Ts&Cs but it counts for stuff all if your budget managers decide they don't pay it and you can only have TOIL.
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Then:

1. You don't work excess hours;
2.You get the Union on the case.
 
Whataboutism writ large in this thread. Torys used to tag Labour with the 'preaching the Politics of envy' smear but they are masters at it, the only difference it's the low paid attacking other low paid, it is beyond fukwittery to allow them to manipulate you that way, wake up or you are all going down and staying down.
 
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Like with many employers, I suspect they get the seniors afraid of their positions to intimidate the juniors who are in a "vocation" for which many have had to study to get a degree. The young staff feel proud of their achievements and the job that they do, they see the value of their contribution and the effect on friends if they don't do more. Older colleagues realise there is nowhere outside that wants burnt out staff.
It's a bloody dog eat dog world, unless working people band together, the present may be grim but the future is likely to be far worse.
 
Haven't read the whole thread.

In the general scheme of things Nurses are paid very much better than they were years ago and many people are bringing up families on less than a nurse earns.

BUT. For this govt of snivelling incompetents to publicly snub the nursing profession in such a way not only confirms their complete political arrogance, but also their attitude to the Govt. spending/borrowing pot. Their claim that 'they' cannot afford more..is despicable.

'They' can 'afford' to borrow as much as is necessary to enrich all of their undeserving friends, safe in the knowledge that the debt will be paid back by those who were not..and never are.. enriched.

Utter bastards to a man (and Patel..Dorries etc..) whose attitude to the public purse is no different to Tories since time immemorial. It is not for the 'little people'... it is for their personal enrichment. The AUP prevents me from saying what I really think.
 
djftw said:
I absolutely think you are right that this being at the top of so many people's agendas rather than say the 650,000 hospitality workers who have lost their jobs altogether etc. etc. is rather tone-deaf and actually indicative of a particularly vile sort of middle-class snobbery that sees a healthcare professional having to settle for a modest pay rise as somehow worse than a "lesser" worker being deprived of their livelihood altogether.
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A valid point. sort of.. I'm just reminded of the very different attitudes which exist when public sector workers in local Govt and Civil Service are blamed for all of the country's ills.. as usually happens when the Private Sector starts acting totally in character and treating its ' non depreciable assets' like shit.
 
cooky1257 said:
Whataboutism writ large in this thread. Torys used to tag Labour with the 'preaching the Politics of envy' smear but they are masters at it the only difference it's the low paid attacking other low paid, it is beyond fukwittery to allow them to manipulate you that way, wake up or you are all going down and staying down.
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Actually - here's the thing: essentially, this sort of apparent& blatant manipulative hypocrisy-as -policy has not, usefully moved anywhere further than the mouth of the cave in what - - nearly sixty years?

Example:

https://twitter.com/johncleese/status/1254130854462455813?lang=en

It was funny then only out of discomfort: today, & given that the basic precepts haven't changed, should be a call to ...
 
Seeker_UK said:
Sorry, BT, you wrote (my emphasis):

Big Tabs said: ↑
N.H.S. Trained Nurses do not get paid overtime. Never have done. It doesn’t exist


And, unless things have changed recently, most of the nurses I knew worked as agency staff (ie overtime) and got paid for it, and certainly more than they'd get paid if they did overtime. :)
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There is a mistake in your understanding.

Agency staff are not N.H.S. staff. They may be N.H.S. staff who work for an agency, but when they are working for the agency (and there are many) they are not N.H.S. staff.

There is often a hospital ‘Bank’ of ‘Bank staff’ who are N.H.S. They earn significantly less than Agency staff.


If units/wards were adequately staffed there would be little need for agency staff. If the N.H.S. ‘Bank’ paid a bit more, then Nurses and Doctors wouldn’t flock to agencies so readily.

Agency Staff have less responsibility than the regular N.H.S. staff, but can earn significantly more during the same shift... it is a complex issue and can cause bad feeling on wards/units between staff.

Unless things have changed, Agency and Bank staff are usually booked as far in advance as possible. Wards have set staffing numbers, so even if the staff think it is very busy, they cannot just ‘do’ agency work, or work for the bank.
I used to write endless incident forms after insane shifts, but got hauled over the coals for writing them. You are told that you should be able to do the work/care in the time allotted.

Many staff would spend an extra hour + every day writing up their nursing notes, which was essential communication and legal documents. Years after the event, nursing notes can be used in a coroner’s court to prove care was (or wasn’t) given.
 
It seems even The Express has a better handle on nurse pay than one or two Tory apologists on here

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"Meanwhile, NHS Providers - which represents hospitals and other NHS trusts in England - said the government had previously set out funding for a five-year period that assumed a 2.1% pay rise in 2021/22.

Saffron Cordery, the organisations's deputy chief executive, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "We are really clear that the government had already budgeted for a pay raise."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

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While not disagreeing for a moment that nurses should get a pay rise, but let’s not forget that all the other keyworkers should be having a pay rise too. Many keyworkers have not just been carrying g on as normal, many have been working many extra hours, in many cases unpaid, trying to deliver front line services. Some teachers for example have seen their job description effectively double at the same time as having to get used to new technology, new assessment regimes and being performance managed. The stress some teachers are under is written on their faces, even when it’s unsaid, it’s obvious.

The applause, the honeyed words from ministers, the deep gratitude expressed for keyworkers are a deception and indicative of a deeply troubled attitude to our public services if those workers are now handed an effective pay cut
 
wacko said:
Is it just part of the ground preparation for NHS piecemeal privatisation...
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It’s more about preparing the electorate to accept privatisation of public services, but yes. At which point it’s important to notice that while the kick in the teeth for nurses is front page news, at the same time, other public castor workers who have suffered very similar stress and extra workload as a result of the pandemic, have received an even bigger kick in the teeth but are not being given a second thought.

The attack on public services will come through Education (see here) and while it is important that nurses are front page news, if we do not respect all our public sector workers, all our public sector services will be at risk as the government backs down on nurses and increases the pressure elsewhere
 
^ Brexit has enabled the right-wing of the Tory Party to dominate UK politics. The direction of travel was cast 4 years ago and it will continue for long enough for all public sector services to be at risk...
 
I think that when Matt Hancock says (with a catch in his throat) '1% is all we can afford', someone should bat him around the head with such reports as:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56295191

'Downing Street has spent more than £2.6m on fitting out a new media briefing room, it has emerged.

No 10 plans to start televised daily press conferences, like those held at the White House - to be fronted by spokeswoman Allegra Stratton.

The Cabinet Office said the spending "is in the public interest" as it will "increase public accountability and transparency."
 
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