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Why should NHS have a pay rise?

sean99 said:
Not necessarily - taxes can rise for corporations and the wealthy. Trickle down economics has been been shown to be an abject failure (or a sham) over the past 40 years.
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Of course they can rise, but the richest corporations and individuals buy the best tax advice known to man.
...and do you know what? The UK is awash with accountants only too willing to sell the best loopholes for a bit of lining their own pockets.

If we all wanted to, we could hit the likes of Amazon hard in the pocket, by not buying from them until they cave and pay more tax.
But we don't do we. It's all far too convenient.

I'm resigned to the fact that the richest can just shovel their money around to the next tax haven on the list.
 
kabayiri said:
Of course they can find the money for the relatively modest numbers of nurses out there.
I suspect the reckoning becomes, how do you then ignore the calls for other groups who believe they have a deserving case for more money?
There are still many self employed who have had zero assistance. There are still grads looking for work and who will be joined by yet more grads this summer.
Then what about Police and Army and Ambulance drivers and ....
You can make a case for many different groups.
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Can you fit a despise button Tony?
 
Of course, those that were able to keep working during the last year have paid a lot more tax, NI and fuel duty than those on furlough. So perhaps a little back to them might be in order.
 
ff1d1l said:
Oh, are there tory apologists on here you feel would benefit from it other than yourself?
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Come on then, give me your brilliant insight to my point.

Do you think it's just the nurses who need the extra money? IMO, there are lots of deserving cases, and any fair government would find a way of rewarding them all.
 
Rodrat said:
I am not denigrating the work they have put in and the emotional and mental health affect the pandemic has had on them. However there seems to be an assumption that the long hours that have been put in are out of kindness, in fact all hours over the standard 37.5 hours are overtime.
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@Rodrat

You have no idea what you are talking about.

N.H.S. Trained Nurses do not get paid overtime. Never have done. It doesn’t exist

They frequently work extra hours for nothing. Because they care.
 
I've not read the rest of this thread because it will probably antagonise me but this is my take. When the military (including me) went into Iraq/Afghanistan, the Government found a way to reward a situation we had 'found ourselves in' in an unique way; Op Allowance. It reflected a tax free period when on operations (about £40 a day) but was definitely a handshake for the bloody awful environment and working conditions that those on the front line had to endure.
What is the difference in the environment and working conditions the NHS have had to endure over the last year or so - the Op Allowance was probably not affordable but the purse holders deemed it necessary to maintain the will of the servicemen - we now need to maintain the will of the NHS staff, and thank them accordingly. If we talk about other public services deserving a pay rise then yes they do, but there is no doubt the NHS have had to deal with more, much more, in the face of the pandemic. This pay rise needs to happen soon, while the country remembers the efforts and sacrifices the doctors, nurses, support staff etc etc have made, because a year or two down the line it will be forgotten, sadly.
 
Big Tabs said:
@Rodrat

You have no idea what you are talking about.

N.H.S. Trained Nurses do not get paid overtime. Never have done. It doesn’t exist

They frequently work extra hours for nothing. Because they care.
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If you are doing unpaid work (of any kind) then you are not insured. What if something went wrong?
 
kabayiri said:
Come on then, give me your brilliant insight to my point.

Do you think it's just the nurses who need the extra money? IMO, there are lots of deserving cases, and any fair government would find a way of rewarding them all.
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As Cooky says upthread. Stop trying to divide, water down and generally justify tory ****erness.
 
Guinnless said:
If you are doing unpaid work (of any kind) then you are not insured. What if something went wrong?
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Trained staff are insured via their union usually, and it could be seen as working against a Nurses code of conduct to leave a ward in a dangerously busy time.
You can’t look at your watch during e.g. resuscitation and leave because it is the end of your shift...
 
Big Tabs said:
@Rodrat

You have no idea what you are talking about.

N.H.S. Trained Nurses do not get paid overtime. Never have done. It doesn’t exist

They frequently work extra hours for nothing. Because they care.
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Nurses do get paid for work over and above their conditioned hours when they do shifts as agency staff.
 
myles said:
I've not read the rest of this thread because it will probably antagonise me but this is my take. When the military (including me) went into Iraq/Afghanistan, the Government found a way to reward a situation we had 'found ourselves in' in an unique way; Op Allowance. It reflected a tax free period when on operations (about £40 a day) but was definitely a handshake for the bloody awful environment and working conditions that those on the front line had to endure.
What is the difference in the environment and working conditions the NHS have had to endure over the last year or so - the Op Allowance was probably not affordable but the purse holders deemed it necessary to maintain the will of the servicemen - we now need to maintain the will of the NHS staff, and thank them accordingly.
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Yes this post has helped me formulate some ideas, so thanks.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Government plans to let the private sector manage more and more of the NHS. And to make it into an attractive area for investors, the more they can show that it can be run for profit and loss, rather than for the welfare of patients and staff, the better. Giving nurses a tax free period would create the wrong sort of public service ethos, in a private company such things wouldn't be possible. And similarly, showing that they can give a minimal reward and get away with it, will demonstrate that the work force is docile and cheap, and that private sector investors won't be impeded by remnants of "health is a public good" thinking.

One thing I would add -- giving them 1% was like holding a red rag to a bull, it is obviously derisory, and the hoo-ha today would have been predictable yesterday. They must think that the economic argument (we're skint because of COVID) will have traction with the public, and so this is a good opportunity to assert themselves, an opportunity to get Tory values more entrenched with the public. To narrow the Overton window a little . . .
 
mandryka said:
Yes this post has helped me formulate some ideas, so thanks.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Government plan to let the private sector manage more and more of the NHS. And to make it into an attractive area for investors, the more they can show that it can be run for profit and loss, rather than for the welfare of patients and staff, the better. Giving nurses a tax free period would create the wrong sort of public service ethos, in a private company such things wouldn't be possible. And similarly, showing that they can give a minimal reward and get away with it, will demonstrate that the work force is docile and cheap.

One thing I would add -- giving them 1% was like holding a red rag to a bull, it is obviously derisory, and the hoo-ha today would have been predictable. They must think that the economic argument (we're skint because of COVID) will have traction with the public, and so this is a good opportunity to assert themselves.
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My point re. tax free periods was that it was used as a valid 'excuse' for providing the deployed military with financial reward. Those deployed to Cyprus, Falklands did not get it because they were not in such a dangerous or inhospitable situation (danger of liver poisoning perhaps!). Such an excuse or reason is not viable or appropriate for NHS staff, but the fact is that it is within the Government's gift (pardon the pun) to pay the NHS accordingly without justifying it to the taxpayer - the justification is in all of our faces day in, day out.
 
myles said:
My point re. tax free periods was that it was used as a valid 'excuse' for providing the deployed military with financial reward. Those deployed to Cyprus, Falklands did not get it because they were not in such a dangerous or inhospitable situation (danger of liver poisoning perhaps!). Such an excuse or reason is not viable or appropriate for NHS staff, but the fact is that it is within the Government's gift (pardon the pun) to pay the NHS accordingly without justifying it to the taxpayer - the justification is in all of our faces day in, day out.
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Yes, I agree with this. But my point is that these people aren't thinking in terms of justice, fairness, right and wrong. They're thinking in terms of involvement of the private sector, control of the workforce, profit and loss, managing the general public's judgements about what's possible and what is not. They are politicians. Their frame of reference is not moral. It is political in the most pejorative sense of the term.
 
Big Tabs said:
Trained staff are insured via their union usually, and it could be seen as working against a Nurses code of conduct to leave a ward in a dangerously busy time.
You can’t look at your watch during e.g. resuscitation and leave because it is the end of your shift...
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Indeed you can't so overtime (or at least TOIL) should be part of the contract thus allowing critical work to be completed.
 
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