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Why should NHS have a pay rise?

Tony L said:
If Labour can’t secure a very decisive government u-turn on this one resulting in a substantive pay rise or bonus appropriate to the horrific work frontline staff have had to endure for the past year then they really need to give up, dissolve the party, and allow a more credible opposition to emerge.

This is unquestionably a test of Labour. We know the Conservative Party is corrupt, self serving, racist, and has utter contempt for state infrastructure and those who work within it. Their reason for existence is to plunder assets and misappropriate our tax revenue whilst opening the country and workforce up for exploitation by whoever will give them money. That is what their donors pay for and it is exactly what they get. As such the party can be viewed as fit for purpose. It is what it is. Labour still need to show us what they are for. Why do they exist?
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Perhaps you can explain how, exactly, the Opposition to a Government with a massive majority can "secure a very decisive u-turn" on this or anything else?

Why don't you expect the same of the LibDems or the Green?
 
Some points about NHS pay rises -

Many NHS employees have already benefited from pay restructuring in recent times.

They have all been fully paid throughout the pandemic (in fact the overtime bills must be enormous!) - millions on Furlough have not - so arguably NHS employees are in a better position than a lot. Teachers, Lecturers and Police and Armed Forces have all worked straight through. Anyone in the hospitality and manufacturing sectors have not and seen real pay decreases.

NHS staff have worked extremely hard and it would seem unfair not to keep up with inflation - but inflation is very low.
Millions of us are going to have to pay more tax to help pay for the borrowing - I know both my wife (in the NHS, no overtime payments for her) and I will pay more - I am not grumbling about that. Even on a 1% payrise many will still end up paying more tax.

NHS pay also has to balanced against other professions. That is why there is a pay commission to look into this stuff. And not to forget - you can read elsewhere, there has been a big spike in demand for training places to join the NHS - so it must be attractive to many. Against that, the NHS has relied a lot on overseas workers - those from the EU will be less numerous so efforts need to made to attract others.

It is a complicated picture and is just too simplistic to say 'aren't they great! - give then a pay rise, cos they deserve it'
 
Cav said:
Perhaps you can explain how, exactly, the Opposition to a Government with a massive majority can "secure a very decisive u-turn" on this or anything else?

Why don't you expect the same of the LibDems or the Green?
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Surely, the smart move for any opposition, is to point out how the wider economy struggles when the NHS approaches a compromised position.
We have been told repeatedly that the lockdowns have been implemented to protect pressures on the NHS, and these cost vast amounts.
This sets the foundation for better/smarter spending on the NHS.

The question is what on. Can you spend more money on better protective gear for staff, or should wages come first? Is it really an either/or?
 
Paul L said:
there have been empty wards and little for many to do
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A right-wing mate told me the same thing in 2017 when we were discussing politics at the local pub. I'm not saying it's not true in some cases, but when a relation of ours became ill because of a heart condition recently, I couldn't believe the chaos in that particular section of the hospital. It was quite obviously understaffed. Maybe at other times it would be quiet.

Also, the local Cheltenham hospital birthing unit has no emergency facilities for if you have problems whilst giving birth. You now have to take an ambulance to Gloucester hospital due to cuts. Luckily for us, we were ok, but not so for someone my GF knows (they lost their baby).
 
Rodrat said:
I am perhaps at odds with many but I don’t see why they should get a rise when most other public sector workers have a pay freeze and until fairly recently have not had an increase for years, in fact our pay has been slashed in real terms due to inflation.

I am not denigrating the work they have put in and the emotional and mental health affect the pandemic has had on them. However there seems to be an assumption that the long hours that have been put in are out of kindness, in fact all hours over the standard 37.5 hours are overtime.

Their jobs are not or will never be at risk. Other public service workers especially in local government face the prospect of job cuts when the Tories cut back funding and when financial impact of the pandemic comes home to roost.

There is also the impact millions will face in the private sector when all the mortgage and rent payments have to be paid when a lot are on benefits not to mention all the other expenses such as car loans etc.

I am sure I will receive a lot of flack but to single out the NHS for a pay increase is a real kick in the teeth for other workers also having deal with the pandemic many of whom are also suffering mental health and emotional issues.
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Don't make it into a competition. Many public sector and private sector employees aren't paid what they're worth. But remember that medical staff work unsocial hours and face many painful incidents in the course of their work, quite apart from the risk of infection.
 
Cav said:
Perhaps you can explain how, exactly, the Opposition to a Government with a massive majority can "secure a very decisive u-turn" on this or anything else?
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What are they for if not to provide forensic scrutiny of the government. Their job, and it is a very well paid one, is to highlight bad government decisions, breaxhes of manifesto pledges, corruption etc and shine the brightest public spotlight on them which given their size and reach should make the government position untenable. Sadly Labour are utter shit at their job, so we have to rely on crowdfunding projects such as The Good Law Project, Led By Donkeys, Extinction Rebellion etc just to show some resistance as Labour consistently refuse to do so. Why you spend so much of your life defending such a useless party is beyond me.

PS The LDs and Greens tend to do more with vastly less MPs. There is seldom any ambiguity in their position on authoritarianism, corruption, ethnic nationalism etc and all the other things Focus Group Labour just nod along with.
 
1% is not a rise, it's a real terms cut, made worse by tax allowances being frozen. Much NHS overtime is given freely because staff are conscientious and if they don't do it the job doesn't get done and people die and then there's even more paperwork. Big business continues to benefit from one of the lowest tax rates in Europe and non-doms and the like continue to pay sod all. The magic money tree has now found £37 billion for track and trace about £500 for each man, woman and child in the country. There seem to be an awful lot of multi-millionaires on pfm, they're the only sort who could get upset about our most valuable workers getting a sub inflation pay "rise."
 
Tony L said:
What are they for if not to provide forensic scrutiny of the government. Their job, and it is a very well paid one, is to highlight bad government decisions, breaxhes of manifesto pledges, corruption etc and shine the brightest public spotlight on them which given their size and reach should make the government position untenable. Sadly Labour are utter shit at their job, so we have to rely on crowdfunding projects such as The Good Law Project, Led By Donkeys, Extinction Rebellion etc just to show some resistance as Labour consistently refuse to do so. Why you spend so much of your life defending such a useless party is beyond me.

PS The LDs and Greens tend to do more with vastly less MPs. There is seldom any ambiguity in their position on authoritarianism, corruption, ethnic nationalism etc and all the other things Focus Group Labour just nod along with.
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Of course they can do all that but a Government with an absolute majority cannot be forced to do anything.

I agree that Starmer is useless but until there is something better, what else is there realistically. It is easy to sit and snipe but that too achieves nothing.
 
Cav said:
It is easy to sit and snipe but that too achieves nothing.
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I’ve given at least an annual party membership fee to The Good Law Project and I’d suggest Labour members to cancel their memberships and do the same. The only real opposition to the Tories at present is independent crowd-funded protest groups. The Westminster career machine that Labour represent these days has failed us. It is a disgrace and embarrassment to the party’s past history.
 
Nice work by Momentum:

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On the economics of this ("We can't afford it..." sad face) people need to read Richard Murphy. This is a cracking thread:

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1367752001686233089
The last year has shown that the argument ‘we cannot afford it’ does not hold true. If there are resources available to use that need to be put to use then the reality is that there is nothing that this country cannot afford.
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The ideas are covered at greater length here:

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1337737606688333826

Hard to get you're head round because we've all been brainwashed by the "national economy = household budget" lie, but it's essential to try.
 
if it's a sub-inflation imposition it's costing the country less in real terms. Any that begrudge are waging class war and politics of envy, those with the most wanting to take from those with less.
 
£100bn+ on HS2, something of that order for the latest nukes, God knows what Brexit will end up costing and the government is saving money by paying NHS staff in real terms. Oh yes, we really are all in this together.
 
Every pound withheld by the government from the public sector in 2010 is now worth £1.36, in 2015, £1.13, 2018, £1.04. The early years of austerity are still having a very real and lasting impact. When are they going to begin to repay the debt? It wil cost them eventually one way or another.
 
I am biased, because my wife is a community nurse, but I think that 1% is a bloody insult. If you were to see the amount of outside hours that my wife puts in at home, when she could just as easily turn off until her next shift. Clapping the nurses and then giving them next to nothing pay raise is hypocrisy at its worse.
 
wylton said:
I am biased, because my wife is a community nurse, but I think that 1% is a bloody insult. If you were to see the amount of outside hours that my wife puts in at home, when she could just as easily turn off until her next shift. Clapping the nurses and then giving them next to nothing pay raise is hypocrisy at its worse.
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Nothing like a bit of good honest bias, it's all the dishonest bias that I object to. Let them tell us the truth and then tell us where and when they want the scrap...
 
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