Tone Poet Blue Notes
- Thread starter poco a poco
- Start date
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Graham, thanks for the link. One of my best friends and his brother who I also know very well are both in their 80's and, fairly long ago retired drummers, who still though have a large Gretsch (I think) kit taking up most of their front living room. They both worship Max Roach so I will email them this link.
vinylslug
pfm Member
I really like the bowing - it's full of texture. This might even be my favourite tone poet so far (from the 20 or so that I've heard, anyway)
kjb
Proof reading not always a strength
Hmmm.
After a few more plays and closer listens I'm changing my mind a bit on this one. It's an odd one and may now be my least favourite of the TPs I've bought so far.
I'd previously really enjoyed the music when I'd played it via Sonos and was looking forward to getting the TP vinyl. However, I'm finding that the remaster has, by comparison, made the bass fuller and far more pronounced and, by increasing fidelity, made the sound of the bass in the arco sections quite unpleasantly raspy as well as highlighting the weaknesses in the playing.
I've a lot of classical recordings with solo bowed cello and some bowed bass on other jazz records and have heard quite a bit of live arco bass and, by comparison, this recording feels acoustically unbalanced with to much of a focus on the bowing than the sound of the notes.
On top of that, for me, in places the recording recesses the other instruments so even thought there's some nice enough playing it feels far less balanced as a session than other TPs. Don't get me wrong, it's a good, if uneven, record that's an interesting one to have in the collection but I think I'm more likely to stream it in the kitchen than sit down and listen to it on vinyl.
Tony L
Administrator
I’ve only played BOT once so far, but I liked it. I’ve never been one who worships at the alter of technique though, so I’m really not bothered by a bit of wonky bowing here and there, it’s the feel/intent that matters, the bowing is just added character. I thought it was a good album and, thanks to the bowing, one that stands out in a whole sea of Blue Note bop/hard-bop. It’s similar to when people criticise Miles as being an average trumpeter in a sea of talent. Playing the trumpet is the least important thing he did IMHO! It is what he created that counts! (He also understood perfectly when not to play/when to play no more than was essential, and that is the sign of real mastery of an instrument).
As I think I touched on upthread my only issue with Blue Note and any label that was very rooted into a movement within a genre is it becomes hard to tell many of the ‘great but not classic’ albums apart. There was a distinct ‘hard bop’ formula and you could likely play me quite a few of my Blue Notes (I have a lot) blind and I don’t think I’d be able to identify the album. I’d likely be able to spot a couple of players within, but as everyone worked with everyone else at that point I’d struggle to pick which record it was. I’d certainly be able to pick BOT and I like it for that!
As I think I touched on upthread my only issue with Blue Note and any label that was very rooted into a movement within a genre is it becomes hard to tell many of the ‘great but not classic’ albums apart. There was a distinct ‘hard bop’ formula and you could likely play me quite a few of my Blue Notes (I have a lot) blind and I don’t think I’d be able to identify the album. I’d likely be able to spot a couple of players within, but as everyone worked with everyone else at that point I’d struggle to pick which record it was. I’d certainly be able to pick BOT and I like it for that!
kjb
Proof reading not always a strength
I know what you mean about blind tests. I think the shared personnel on so many records exacerbates this so the generic sound or feel becomes more of a feature than individual tracks or records, especially with the later 50s early 60s recordings. I love it as a genre but, like you, find it hard to identify the stand out recordings from what are often rather disparagingly called the blowing sessions although the overall quality delivers a very high % of the good stuff.
And, as you say, there is a distinctiveness that gives BoT a different flavour from the other records. Over time I may well learn to love it.
And, as you say, there is a distinctiveness that gives BoT a different flavour from the other records. Over time I may well learn to love it.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I will, as I said, give it a few more plays, but I pretty much agree with that. I also have a few classical works with solo Arco cello or bass. Since BOT arrived I have been looking for what I have done with an LP I have somewhere of just solo Bass. If I remember mainly pieces by Tippett? Just because it is a bit different does not necessarily make it good.
I'm not sure I would agree with that if you take the full amount of time Blue Note has been in existence. It is true to some extent for the hard bop period only where Alfred Lion was interchanging many of the same players with one nominated as the leader. Prior to that you had artists like Bud Powell and Clifford Brown and even early Miles that were doing different things and sounding distinctly different. Then as things move on into the mid sixties you have Andrew Hill, Sam Rivers, Cecil Taylor, Don Cherry, later period Jacki McLean pushing the music to a much freer apoach, but all composing and sounding different to one-another. You then also have the organ players and the soul jazz artists again all sounding different from the Hard Bop school. So if you look even just at the Alfred Lion, Francis Wolff period they were supporting many aspects of Jazz. A big slice may have been Hard Bop, but that was what was selling and supporting the probably non profitable rest.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Just to add a little to the above. I am just playing Tom Cat a Lee Morgan favourite of mine. This with Morgan's distinctive playing and the addition of Curtis Fuller on Trombone and McLean on Alto was recorded in 1962 while still somewhat Hard Bop in approach has and an almost a big band sound at times. But it did not get a release till 1980 because Lee's the Sidewinder was a smash hit and Alfred Lion wanted a follow up that would also sell well he hoped (The Rumproller). There are quite a few cases like this where the musicians were moving forward, but the commercial restraints needed to keep the label going (and give the musicians an income) slowed the 'natural' development. It would have been interesting to have been around in New York at that time to hear how the musicians were playing together in the clubs compared to what they were releasing on record.
Tony L
Administrator
Can’t disagree with any of that. I personally just get a lot of one particular aspect of it jumbled in my mind, and there is a heck of a lot of that aspect! No one is going to mistake Out To Lunch with Midnight Blue or Ethiopian Knights, so there is obviously a heck of a lot of diversity within the catalogue. I just wish the Tone Poet reissue program would move further forward in time as to my mind much of the really neglected stuff is from say ‘68 onwards. So much of that has never been reissued and sounds very fresh and in tune with the current young jazz scene.
Graham H
pfm Member
And that is why the ESP label was/is so interesting, documenting contemporary developments as they were happening and allowing the artists complete control over every aspect of production, including choice of studio, material, musicians, engineers etc. Commercial considerations were low on the agenda. By the mid 60s Blue Note appeared relatively conservative and out of touch by comparison.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I was really thinking around 1962 - 1964 that may have been the gestation period for a directional change in the Music. I don't think ESP disk started till late 64? Their second release was Albert Ayler's Spiritual Unity in 1965. I have the ESP Disk complete Albert Ayler CD box set and a couple of other things only. Creed Taylor started Impulse in 1960 and by 1962 released Coltrane 'Live at the Villge Vanguard' and by 1965 Coltrane's Ascension. ESP is a label I need to know more about though.
mikechadwick
pfm Member
I bow to the greater knowledge of Jazz expressed in this thread (I was more into Rock & Reggae during my formative years) and I've certainly picked up some great reissues via TP, 80th anniversary and now Classics, but I'm starting to get really choosey as to which titles I go for and, personally, I'd like to see more soul-jazz releases being part of the program.
Graham H
pfm Member
I think my main point is that Blue Note was a highly commercial concern, largely comprising of successful recipes. Yes, they released titles by Ornette, Sam Rivers and Cecil Taylor, but those albums didn’t sell and as you say some of the more adventurous titles slated for Blue Note were held back and not released until the 70s or thereafter.
To my mind both Impulse and ESP were more representative of how jazz was developing from the early to mid 60s. Coltrane is said to have had a huge influence on who recorded for Impulse, not just the A&R suits at the label per se. And Sun Ra paved the way by having his own label, something the jazz community would later embrace (I’m thinking India Navigation, Strata East, Flying Dutchman etc) enabling artists more control over their own music.
Anyway, I digress. Back to the relatively cosy world of Blue Note and TP......I’m waiting for the aptly named Passing Ships.
Tony L
Administrator
I have to admit I don’t know ESP, I need to research that one, but it is easy to overlook quite a few turkeys lurking within the Impulse catalogue. There’s some real kitsch in there, and not in the cool Esquivel way either, e.g. much as I rate Oliver Nelson (Blues & The Abstract Truth and Sound Pieces are great) I’d not spend too much time defending Michelle with it’s naff Beatles covers etc. A fair bit of very traditional/conservative stuff too. I guess no surprise given the obvious connection between Impulse and CTI. I love both labels, but it certainly isn’t all cutting edge by any stretch.
Graham H
pfm Member
.
I’d agree, but Impulse did have Alice and John Coltrane, Sanders, Sun Ra, Shepp, Marion Brown et al - all said to be there by persuasion of John Coltrane. ESP was mostly hardcore. Essential listening.
Seanm
pfm Member
That will always be the centre of things for me: I've been enjoying the BN stuff as a kind of excursion. ESP next!
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I guess that is the case for for most commercial labels that even if they did release and support some adventurous stuff they made their money from what was / is more popular and will make them a profit. I was looking a bit more into ESP Disk and a lot of their output was rock music that presumably was more profitable for them. That and apparently they also had a reputation for not paying their artists royalties? It's probably only musician led and run labels that have kept fully true to their musicians intent and unfortunately in most cases these don't seem to have survived very long. It's a bit of an irony that because of rarity these originals are some of the most expensive to buy now.
Dougie2404
cranky old git
Anyone else had problems with the BlueNote shop? I've had BOT ordered for a couple of months along with I Can see your house, is see me as if you've got your copies of bot but not a sign of mine. I feel that they are always slow on getting things dispatched but this is bad, I'll be going elsewhere in future so no big deal.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Yes their prices are good, but it is quite a problem both here and in the states. In particular if you make a multiple order and opt for a delivery together to save on shipping. Then if just one is out of stock you have to wait for the rest. It seems some of the initial runs are quite short because of Delays caused by Covid both at Stoughton and RTI and the US seems to get nearly all of the initial run. I Can See Your House From Here is one such. Honest Jon's has BOT for £32 though.
https://honestjons.com/shop/artist/Paul_Chambers/release/Bass_On_Top
Dougie2404
cranky old git
Cheers I thought that might be the case but hoped that they would let folks know what was goin on.