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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer II

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Brexit is over. Our relationship with the EU is not.

Starmer needs to be able to use the shitty deal as ammunition.

Voting with it neuters any opposition.

Johnson will just reply ‘you voted for it!’

Any nuance will be lost.

Stephen
 
My point.
I’m not really sure I understand, in 3 years time they have to try & get votes from people who voted Brexit. I am not sure these people will have changed their minds but Labour will be able to get some capital around broken promises (fishing etc).

But I am no longer really invested in this.
 
I’m not really sure I understand, in 3 years time they have to try & get votes from people who voted Brexit. I am not sure these people will have changed their minds but Labour will be able to get some capital around broken promises (fishing etc).

But I am no longer really invested in this.

Those people were never worth chasing. They are emotionally invested in social conservatism and nationalism, they bought the Farage/Johnson lies and will never want to get that they made rich people very rich and themselves worse off. The irony of Parliamentary Sovereignty being bypassed and power being grabbed by the Right rather than anything being reclaimed for them will not figure either. However, the progressive younger generations will be lost and Labour will struggle to impress any of them by criticising something they voted for when they really did not have to - think Clegg.

I'm not a youngster but I will struggle to vote Labour for the first time (other than the odd tactical vote) in the absence of any intentions to move the UK back toward a more progressive and less obstructive relationship with the EU/wider world. I might be alone, but I somehow doubt it. I think NI and Scotland are gone, just a matter of time. The idea of then staying in little Tory England which is ridiculously hubristic about it's ability and significance doesn't appeal, fortunately I have options, many won't.
 
Those people were never worth chasing. They are emotionally invested in social conservatism and nationalism, they bought the Farage/Johnson lies and will never get that they made rich people very rich and themselves worse off. The irony of Parliamentary Sovereignty being bypassed and power being grabbed by the Right rather than anything being reclaimed for them will not figure either. However, the progressive younger generations will be lost and Labour will struggle to impress any of them by criticising something they voted for when they really did not have to - think Clegg.

I'm not a youngster but I will struggle to vote Labour for the first time (other than the odd tactical vote) in the absence of any intentions to move the UK back toward a more progressive and less obstructive relationship with the EU. I might be alone, but I somehow doubt it and I think NI and Scotland are gone, just a matter of time. The idea of then staying in little Tory England which is ridiculously hubristic about it's ability and significance doesn't appeal, fortunately I have options. Many won't.
I think past Labour voters are gettable but I cannot really argue with your main point. Where will the younger voters go?
 
I think past Labour voters are gettable but I cannot really argue with your main point. Where will the younger voters go?

Spread around Greens, Libs, Left of Labour I guess, just the age old problem of a sizable minority government being able to rule because there is no focus for the opposition that is acceptable enough for all. You've seen the extent to which the Tories will unite, the deal is something the ERG should never be able to support - but there they are, back in the pen with a rotten deal that crossed virtually all of their supposed red lines. Labour can never muster that kind of zeal for unity above all else.

The Republcans in the US have shown us how much further it can be taken. Meanwhile the opposition here will be spread far worse than the Democrats are and look how hard they had to work to defeat a complete lunatic (and mentor for our own idiot in chief).
 
Spread around Greens, Libs, Left of Labour I guess, just the age old problem of a sizable minority government being able to rule because there is no focus for the opposition that is acceptable enough for all. You've seen the extent to which the Tories will unite, the deal is something the ERG should never be able to support - but there they are, back in the pen. Labour can never muster that kind of zeal for unity above all else.

The Republcans in the US have also shown us how much further it can be taken. Meanwhile the opposition here will be spread far worse than the Democrats are and look how hard they hard to work to get past a lunatic and mentor for our own idiot in chief.
I don’t trust the Libs & I cannot see the Greens getting enough votes (the mouth breathing meathead motorists will always do for them).

We will end up with a choice between centre & right wing. Or right wing & righter wing.
 
I don’t trust the Libs & I cannot see the Greens getting enough votes (the mouth breathing meathead motorists will always do for them).

We will end up with a choice between centre & right wing. Or right wing & righter wing.

Well the Tories have become UKIP (not just for Brexit either) to the extent that UKIP don't need to exist - so you do the maths.
 
Another of Starmer's 10 pledges abandoned today:

https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
6. Defend migrants’ rights
Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.
Not much sign of the bit in bold in his speech today.

Hard to think of any politician who has broken almost all of his promises so quickly.
 
This is the final nail in the Labour coffin for the 48%. I disagree with Drood—this will lose Labour a lot of votes.

I really don't understand Starmer chasing a diminishing demographic that have pretty much given over to the Tories/Brexit party anyhow.

Starmer spent four years claiming what we have now is a disaster, yet is now enthusiastically supporting the Tories. He just comes across as unprincipled as any Conservative.

There is one thing that will get me to vote Labour at the next election. A commitment to PR.

Stephen
I think it's unlikely that they'll lose a lot of votes over it. What would it take to keep the uh, prioritisers of Remain whipped up for another 4 years? Bear in mind this constituency is overwhelmingly middle aged, comfortably off, and is unlikely to be badly affected by Brexit fallout: this is an abstract and symbolic issue for most, not that there's anything wrong with that. Symbolic issues need resources to keep people engaged. They need organisational structure, and People's Vote, Our Future Our Choice etc. vanished in a puff of smoke once they'd got what they wanted. They need media representation, and the only widely read Remain organ, The Guardian, has put away the placards. In fact as the recent interview shows, they're going to give Starmer all the space he needs to make his case, for as long as it takes. It's not a completely unreasonable case and eventually the majority of this anyway quite small constituency will be worn down.

That's my guess anyway, but I've shown my workings. Predictions based on this being a red line for young people are, IMO, not credible. Young people have other priorities - rent, work, relentless persecution based on race, gender and lifestyle - and it's here that Starmer's fcking things up as far as they're concerned.
 
Yes!

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1344280898112544771

Well trolled sir.

Edited to add Corbyn's full statement (on Facebook):
I cannot vote for Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal today, which this Government will use to drive down rights and protections, and step up the sell-off of our vital public services.

The Prime Minister appeared in parliament today to present a fait accompli to MPs with no opportunity to amend or scrutinise a major piece of legislation. Not for the first time has he treated democratic accountability with contempt and covered up the inadequacy of his agreement with the EU with bluster and obfuscation.

Whilst the public debate has been dominated by issues of fishing – and in the end there is a five-year extension on that matter - other matters however have received no scrutiny or debate, despite being crucial to the society we wish to be and the country we must build over the coming years.

Of particular importance from a progressive perspective, is that far from protecting workers rights, and environmental standards, they apparently are dependent on whether or not they have any effect on “trade or investment”. Indeed, Johnson confirmed this morning there would be no keeping up with any future alignment with the EU. We know what the Conservative agenda on these rights mean – they have never missed an opportunity to further exploit workers and our environment, and they have sought to create an opportunity for themselves in what they have negotiated.

Additionally, there is no positive news for the 1.6m European nationals who live in Britain and have children or relationships as part of our local communities. What of their future? The government has failed them.

There is no agreement on qualifications being transportable between the EU and the UK in the future. How will this impact on our education system, our research links and our public services? There is no answer.

And this is a ‘thin deal’ which leaves open the potential of damaging tariff wars in the future over agricultural and manufactured goods.

There has also been a claim that Johnson wanted to be free from the EU State aid rules, briefing that they were restrictive of Government intervention to support economic development. My belief has always been that these are restrictive and would hamper a progressive Labour government trying to regenerate the most left behind parts of Britain - but this deal does not break free of state aid or public procurement restrictions, or of commitments to competition and privatisation of public services. They are baked into the deal.

Just over a year ago, in the Sheffield TV debate during the General Election, Boris Johnson challenged my views on public spending, and on handling future relations with Europe by gaily telling the world that we couldn’t afford Labour’s spending plans and that he would “get Brexit done”.

I gently pointed out to him that not only could we as a country afford the spending plans that we put forward, but as a country we could not afford to not apply them.
One year on, the Coronavirus crisis has shown that when the will is there, the Government can spend more, and also why the public investment we argued for was - and is - so desperately needed.

Predictably, rather than focussing on getting the best possible Brexit done in terms of our economy and rights – and in a way which would allow scrutiny and democratic input – the shambolic Johnson Government wasted time with an attempted trade agreement with Trump and the United States, which would have put standards and jobs at risk in Britain, and damaged trade with the EU.

The reality now facing us is that we have a Tory government that has shown throughout the crisis its real agenda of privatisation of our public services and redistribution of power and wealth to the already super rich. This Government worships a failed neo-liberal system which has created Covid billionaires, and the Tories consistent failure to put people and health first has led to thousands of needless deaths, and an NHS which is on the brink of being overwhelmed after being so so undervalued and underfunded by the Tories over the last decade.

This deal should not be supported because it does not give the protections claimed, and it does not secure trade or conditions for our future outside the European Union. It paves the way in the future for very disadvantaged trade deals with other countries, particularly the United States. It gives a Right-Wing Tory government a chance to cut privatised deals, and re-balance our economy in favour of the Tories and their allies.

There is a better way. We need instead to break with the failed race-to-the-bottom policies of the past and build a Britain that puts people before private profit.
Now that's what I call forensic opposition.
 
I think it's unlikely that they'll lose a lot of votes over it. What would it take to keep the uh, prioritisers of Remain whipped up for another 4 years? Bear in mind this constituency is overwhelmingly middle aged, comfortably off, and is unlikely to be badly affected by Brexit fallout: this is an abstract and symbolic issue for most, not that there's anything wrong with that. Symbolic issues need resources to keep people engaged. They need organisational structure, and People's Vote, Our Future Our Choice etc. vanished in a puff of smoke once they'd got what they wanted. They need media representation, and the only widely read Remain organ, The Guardian, has put away the placards. In fact as the recent interview shows, they're going to give Starmer all the space he needs to make his case, for as long as it takes. It's not a completely unreasonable case and eventually the majority of this anyway quite small constituency will be worn down.

That's my guess anyway, but I've shown my workings. Predictions based on this being a red line for young people are, IMO, not credible. Young people have other priorities - rent, work, relentless persecution based on race, gender and lifestyle - and it's here that Starmer's fcking things up as far as they're concerned.
It's not the issue itself but the symbolism and how it feeds the toxic narrative that "all politicians are the same". If the Lib-Dems and Greens have anything about them they will capitalise on Starmer's "betrayal of young voters" and make gains at Labour's expense. I agree that this becomes less of an issue if/when Starmer ****s up on the other issues you mention.
 
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