Labour Leader: Keir Starmer II

[Tony L]

Don’t know how many times I’ll have to say this: I’m not endorsing Labour! I’m pointing out that the other parties are just as cynical if not more so and have spent the last few years more or less sitting their followers down and explaining this to them. It’s beyond weird that some people can take that all in and then applaud them for their principled stance.

You keep saying they are cynical, yet they consistently block vote on my side of the ideological map, whereas Labour either vote the polar opposite or cowardly abstain. There is no additional complexity here. It is a very simple checklist. I have a set of core beliefs and I will always argue and vote for them.

 

[droodzilla]

The left are trolling, I reckon, and who could blame them. All things being equal - I.e. abstracting from the history of cynical manoeuvring and duplicity - Starmer’s right and Corbyn’s wrong.

Anyway, good article here from David Edgerton on what Labour should do now, in broad strokes. Voting for the deal fits rather better with this picture than taking a symbolic stand, IMO.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-national-illusions-labour-alternative-future

“Yet the ideological maelstrom of Brexit gives Labour the opportunity to abandon old nostrums and re-energise itself with a new national mission and a new history of its own. The left needs to disabuse itself of the cosy and outdated notion that Britain’s ills are caused by imperial hangovers and a consequently incompetent upper-class elite. Labour needs to wake up and offer an alternative future to contest the Tory narrative – one that amounts to more than just better welfare and more administrative competence.

Labour could start by being nostalgic not for a Tory past, but a Labour one: of greater equality, of common purpose, of strong trade unions, of rising wages, of meaningful work. Labour could embrace the idea of a refreshed democracy, of really taking back control – of an anti-elite politics rather than a reheated technocracy. It could once again become the party that offers a national, collective critique of the elite and its power – as it was from the 1930s into the 1970s – and propose a policy of national reconstruction and equality. Labour should be the party that speaks in realities, not in celebratory fantasies, and seeks to create a truthful democratic politics, which is essential to any real programme of progressive change.

The one good thing to come out of Brexit is the bonfire of national illusions which is about to rage. It would be tragic if Labour were to try to put it out. For in its own way, Brexit has forced some essential understanding of Britain’s place in the world.”

Haha, now I think you're trolling. Don't know about the rest of the left but Corbyn's position is boringly consistent: respect the referendum result but seek the best deal for workers' rights and the environment, subject to that constraint. It would be interesting to look at how all members of the Socialists Campaign Group of MPs voted: my guess is it was in line with their interpretation of the wishes of their constituents. Anyway, my bottom line on this is that Labour should not be associated with a bad Tory deal.

Good article by Edgerton. Spot on about Brexit and its possibilities, I think. Thought-provoking on how Labour should respond but I'm wary of appeals to nostalgia generally, however well-intentioned. I'd rather Labour articulated a positive and radical vision for the future, less tied to old ideas about growth and rising wages.

Not much chance of that under the new management.

 

[Seanm]

You keep saying they are cynical, yet they consistently block vote on my side of the ideological map, whereas Labour either vote the polar opposite or cowardly abstain. There is no additional complexity here. It is a very simple checklist. I have a set of core beliefs and I will always argue and vote for them.

There’s no additional complexity if you adopt a fundamentalist approach to Brexit, but this is what makes you such an easy mark for these shysters. SNP and LDs have consistently put their own interests above stopping Brexit and this is obvious to everyone interested in the difference between what politicians say and what they do. That’s really the only additional complexity in play here!

 

[Tony L]

There’s no additional complexity if you adopt a fundamentalist approach to Brexit

It is a perfectly rational analysis. This was a long-standing fracture between the institutionally racist and xenophobic right-wing of the Tory Party and the pro-EU centre. It it was sold to the country by the far right (Farage, UKIP, ERG, offshore tabloid press barons etc) using barely reheated National Front rhetoric and some very dark money. I am beyond astonished you don’t grasp this. The evidence is indisputable.

Labour puffed up a truly pathetic reality distortion field around policy as many of their voters are very socially conservative and some clearly racist. There was sadly considerable overlap between Labour’s northern base and the vile NF rhetoric of Farage, the Daily Mail, Express etc. Since then Labour’s focus group has won, and your endlessly defending that is really quite ugly IMHO.

Thankfully the other progressive parties could call Brexit exactly what it was without fear of losing votes. Anti-fascists voting anti-fascist. It is all there to see.

 

[Seanm]

A Labour past of "greater equality, of common purpose, of strong trade unions, of rising wages, of meaningful work" are things that Labour now seem to be rowing away from, not towards

Labour and the country as a whole have moved away from those things under their own steam, with the EU playing a marginal role at best, and the same will hold true as regards whether or not we now change direction. Certainly this vote has almost no bearing on what Labour now chooses to do with regard to supporting unions etc.

I think there’s a general sense of hope that Britain might now at least be forced to confront some of its illusions about itself. Usually people have Brexiters and the right in mind here, and I actually think the prospects for any of them learning any lessons are pretty slim, the UK media being what it is. But the left could also stand to lose some of its illusions, and chief among those is that the EU has either supported or limited a left wing agenda in this country in any meaningful way. It hasn’t, and our exit from the EU won’t either, IMO.

Whether or not Starmer now chooses to follow a progressive agenda is 100% in his hands. In some ways continuing to replay Brexit lets him off the hook: “Sorry lads, would love to have done all that workers’ rights stuff, but what can we do? I did my best but we’re out of the EU!”

 

[Seanm]

It is a perfectly rational analysis. This was a long-standing fracture between the institutionally racist and xenophobic right-wing of the Tory Party and the pro-EU centre. It it was sold to the country by the far right (Farage, UKIP, ERG, offshore tabloid press barons etc) using barely reheated National Front rhetoric and some very dark money. I am beyond astonished you don’t grasp this. The evidence is indisputable.

Labour puffed up a truly pathetic reality distortion field around policy as many of their voters are very socially conservative and some clearly racist. There was sadly considerable overlap between Labour’s northern base and the vile NF rhetoric of Farage, the Daily Mail, Express etc. Since then Labour’s focus group has won, and your endlessly defending that is really quite ugly IMHO.

Thankfully the other progressive parties could call Brexit exactly what it was without fear of losing votes. Anti-fascists voting anti-fascist. It is all there to see.

You’re on a loop mate! What Labour did isn’t the issue here, it’s what the others did, which is: not prioritise stopping Brexit. It’s a straightforward words/actions proposition, and you can have everything completely straight and consistent in your own head, but if you don’t recognise there’s a disjunction between these two things you are working at one remove from reality I’m afraid.

 

[ks.234]

Labour and the country as a whole have moved away from those things under their own steam, with the EU playing a marginal role at best, and the same will hold true as regards whether or not we now change direction. Certainly this vote has almost no bearing on what Labour now chooses to do with regard to supporting unions etc.

I think there’s a general sense of hope that Britain might now at least be forced to confront some of its illusions about itself. Usually people have Brexiters and the right in mind here, and I actually think the prospects for any of them learning any lessons are pretty slim, the UK media being what it is. But the left could also stand to lose some of its illusions, and chief among those is that the EU has either supported or limited a left wing agenda in this country in any meaningful way. It hasn’t, and our exit from the EU won’t either, IMO.

Whether or not Starmer now chooses to follow a progressive agenda is 100% in his hands. In some ways continuing to replay Brexit lets him off the hook: “Sorry lads, would love to have done all that workers’ rights stuff, but what can we do? I did my best but we’re out of the EU!”

Yes, agree will all of that

 

[Tony L]

You’re on a loop mate! What Labour did isn’t the issue here, it’s what the others did, which is: not prioritise stopping Brexit. It’s a straightforward words/actions proposition, and you can have everything completely straight and consistent in your own head, but if you don’t recognise there’s a disjunction between these two things you are working at one remove from reality I’m afraid.

I’m viewing a far longer timeframe, certainly not playing 4d chess/reality distortion or whatever. FWIW I think the point Labour were destroyed as a credible political force (assuming we ignore certain Iraq sized elephants in the room) was actually the Gillian Duffy incident. From then onwards they decided as a political entity that they can’t be unambiguously anti-racist/anti-fascist. I am viewing everything from way, way before the Brexit campaign and vote right through to the present day, i.e. a period encompassing four Labour leaders (Brown to Starmer). Mine is a straightforward and unambiguous anti-nationalist/anti-fascist stance. I have held it since the late-70s!

 

[Seanm]

I’m viewing a far longer timeframe, certainly not playing 4d chess/reality distortion or whatever. FWIW I think the point Labour was destroyed as a credible political force (assuming we ignore certain Iraq sized elephants in the room) was actually the Gillian Duffy incident. From then onwards they decided as a political entity that they can’t be unambiguously anti-racist/anti-fascist. I am viewing everything from way before the Brexit vote right through to the present day, i.e. a period of four Labour leaders. Mine is a straightforward and unambiguous anti-nationalist/anti-fascist stance. I have held it since the late-70s!

Loop! Not talking about Labour but about the other grifters. Renounce your faith in them and we can get on with our day. Renounce!

 

[Tony L]

Loop! Not talking about Labour but about the other grifters. Renounce your faith in them and we can get on with our day. Renounce!

Why is taking an unambiguously anti-nationalist stance ‘grift’? Again, check the voting records! The other progressives side with me in being unified against the right-wing Brexit project, Labour make and sell Farage-tinted ‘Controls On Immigration’ mugs etc. There is a line in the sand here, and Labour is way, way over on the wrong side of it!

 

[Seanm]

Why is taking an unambiguously anti-nationalist stance ‘grift’? Again, check the voting records! The other progressives side with me in being unified against the right-wing Brexit project, Labour make and sell Farage-tinted ‘Controls On Immigration’ mugs etc. There is a line in the sand here, and Labour is way, way over on the wrong side of it!

I’m going to have to leave this with you, but once again, I’m not defending Labour or even talking about them.

 

[droodzilla]

One of the few consolations of the Brexit debacle is seeing charlatans like Jess Philips exposed to the full fury of the FBPE monster they helped to create:

https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1344951475047378944

Of course Corbyn said this ages ago and was denounced as the scum of the earth by Philips and other "pro-EU" Labour MPs: https://twitter.com/JamesEFoster/status/1344990571249733632

One would have to have a heart of stone...etc.

Seriously, I wonder how big a problem this loud, rabidly pro-EU contingent will be for Labour now that "sensible" standard bearers like Jess and Hilary Benn have abandoned them. I noticed earlier that Simon Schama is already rallying the troops with a call to start the fight to rejoin the EU now.

I bet the Tories are already planning fake Rejoin campaigns as I type.

 

[Dave H.]

It would be interesting to look at how all members of the Socialists Campaign Group of MPs voted: my guess is it was in line with their interpretation of the wishes of their constituents.

FWIW (probably not much), my MP is a member, and has form on defying the whip occasionally (eg the Spycops bill). He voted for the deal.

I can’t demonstrate it because no poll has been conducted afaik, but I would very strongly suspect that a majority of people round here would have preferred him to abstain, more or less on grounds of ‘we voted remain, and we lost, but eff supporting the Tory bastards and their shit deal’. (It’s generally quite pro-EU and very anti-Tory in this area, so I don’t think I’m being too solipsistic).

As such, I don’t think the presumed wishes of his constituents was what swayed his vote.

 

[Seanm]

Teaching union is standing up to the government’s strategy of overwhelming the health system by opening up schools. Big test for Keith. The press are painting it as unions trying to run the country. He can either treat that as a devastating power move to which there is no answer or stand up for children, working people and the NHS. Let’s see.

 

[Tony L]

Frankie Boyle ripped into Starmer big time last night on his end of year review. Very funny indeed and worth a look on iPlayer if missed (assuming you like him, which I do). He has Labour summed up very well!

 

[ks.234]

Teaching union is standing up to the government’s strategy of overwhelming the health system by opening up schools. Big test for Keith. The press are painting it as unions trying to run the country. He can either treat that as a devastating power move to which there is no answer or stand up for children, working people and the NHS. Let’s see.

The action of Gavin Williamson have had a huge detrimental impact on teachers and children. Saying schools had to open and conduct testing has had a huge impact on workload over Xmas, which followed by this on, then off again, then no plan for the future is causing uncertainty and extra work for teachers having to plan for different possible scenarios, and pupils facing mock exams.

The fact that no one is holding Williamson to account, not even questioning some of his more outrageous lies, is depressing

 

[Del monaco]

The action of Gavin Williamson have had a huge detrimental impact on teachers and children. Saying schools had to open and conduct testing has had a huge impact on workload over Xmas, which followed by this on, then off again, then no plan for the future is causing uncertainty and extra work for teachers having to plan for different possible scenarios, and pupils facing mock exams.

The fact that no one is holding Williamson to account, not even questioning some of his more outrageous lies, is depressing

Remember his photo with the whip and the little black book?

 

[ks.234]

Remember his photo with the whip and the little black book?

Yes, indeed. Williamson must know about the unpleasant past of quite a few Tories to get where he is today. In fact, given Williamson’s serial and alarming incompetence, he must know about an awful lot of Tories with a great many very nasty secrets to hide.

 

[Tony L]

It’s actually hard to believe they could be doing anything else in private that is worse than what they do so brazenly in public!

 

[ks.234]

It’s actually hard to believe they could be doing anything else in private that is worse than what they do so brazenly in public!

Williamson’s rise to prominence can only be explained by his knowledge of the widespread eating of babies in the dark secret heart of the Tory Party.